[LEGION]: FROST Death Knight

[RuneDK]

http://captiongenerator.com/102621/frost

For those who haven't seen it...it's fucking hilarious.

[Dracovian]

It's really pointless to bitch about anything at this point. It seems no one can argue the same set of numbers, because one guy is pulling numbers from a month ago, another from 2 weeks ago and a third is jumping in with numbers from Live.

How about waiting until everyone is dealing with the same, non-Alpha/non-Beta/non-preLegionLive, numbers -- then we can bitch like we have been for the past 5 years, and have Blizzard continue to ignore every single rationale complaint?

It doesn't matter where the numbers come from or how old they are, Frost has always been behind. Not once has Frost been ahead.

[RuneDK]

Although I do feel I must apologize for the current state of Frost. It seems every class/spec I play gets ignored by the developers and sent to the abyss of uselessness -- first it was Rangers in EQ, then I played Prot Warrior, then Enhancement Shaman and now Frost DK.

Sorry...

On a side note, if you like I will roll up a Fire Mage, so they can be destroyed and ignored by Blizzard

Get going to that mage stuff...but frost has largely been ignored for a few expansions now.

[Piz813]

http://captiongenerator.com/102621/frost

For those who haven't seen it...it's fucking hilarious.

HAHAHAHAHA
This should sum it all up. Amazing. Going UH for legion

[nathrizarri]

So you will be maining Frost?

Yes, I will be Frost/Blood. Compared to a Frost/UH Ms/Os, bringing a reliable tank option to the raids would be much more valuable. Artifact progressionwise I do not care about the 35th point on Blood, raw extra HP does not mean much.

[RuneDK]

I like the new visuals of the spec. Frostscythe looks really awesome. Other than that, the spec is all over the place. One single target generator and one single target spender. Zero aoe spender? Frostscythe is better used as runic power spender for aoe instead of frost strike. In honesty it needs a LOT of work. There should be one more mechanic/stack or something added.

I still don't understand why unholy got completely overhauled. I mean I would be okay if it got overhauled and so did frost...but frost absolutely needed to be reworked from the ground up.

[Coldvibes]

Frost has had many tiers above Unholy since WotLK.

Even in the beta, for a time where the Rime proc rate and Ambidexterity wasn't fixed AND SF was tweaked to its current AP scaling while multistriking due to targets' hitboxes... yeah Frost was definitely stronger than Unholy, if only for a week.

[hellhamster]

Thinking of returning since Pandaria, is frost still eating the devs' raw sewage or are we gonna finally see some brighter days? If played competitively, can frost top the meters again?

[Gemini Soul]

Thinking of returning since Pandaria, is frost still eating the devs' raw sewage or are we gonna finally see some brighter days? If played competitively, can frost top the meters again?

Of equal skill and gearing towards best stats, Unholy would win out by X%. To top it off Unholy over all is just a much better spec when you remove DPS from consideration.

[Mercane]

Thinking of returning since Pandaria, is frost still eating the devs' raw sewage or are we gonna finally see some brighter days? If played competitively, can frost top the meters again?

The current state of Frost in Legion

[RuneDK]

Thinking of returning since Pandaria, is frost still eating the devs' raw sewage or are we gonna finally see some brighter days? If played competitively, can frost top the meters again?

Pretty much what @Gemini Soul said. Ignore DPS, and unholy is hands down better...include it..and it's no question. Frost should be ahead of Unholy damage wise simply because it doesn't bring as much to the table as Unholy. However I know there will be people who will strongly disagree with that statement.

look at the video i posted above and it will sum up frost while making you laugh at the same time. I don't care who you are...that video is hilarious.

[frychikn]

i really wish blizzard devs were really active on popular forums, i want to know if they agree with people here that frost is just god awful and theres no reason to bring it over unholy.

[Apollinaire]

The argument can be made...say you have two DKs...one is playing Frost one is playing unholy...you let it play out....frost dk is doing good so you figure he should do fine as unholy...make him switch...give him time to readjust but he hates it...As frost he did 200k...as unholy he's doing 175k. Come to find out he hates playing unholy. While yes...unholy has a higher ceiling...it has a lower ceiling for someone who hates the spec. lets say the DK who was playing unholy to begin with was doing 205k.....there's really no loss for letting the one who enjoys frost to play it(this obviously is a best case scenerio).

However mythic raiding is doable even without an optimal setup...my guild before last killed mythic archimonde with four ret pallies and no mages. Yes they slammed their heads against the wall way too long but the optimal setup really only applies to guilds in the top 500...after that....barring of course that the other spec isn't substantially behind, the use of suboptimal specs aren't whats holding the guild back.

I specifically mentioned this was from that cutting edge perspective. You're right, if one's in a casual guild where nobody cares about where they rank or how they parse, it doesn't matter what they play. But as you acknowledged yourself, in my situation it does matter. TBH though in the situation you described, that player who can't play both specs well, especially the one with the higher ceiling, probably wouldn't make it through the app/trial process even if we were recruiting.

Why then don't you play a mage or a rogue? Why would you play a DK (unholy or frost doesn't matter) which compared to the other two is suboptimal? Playing a DK (again unholy or frost) according to your guild standards is selfish and counter-intuitive when you can play a mage or a rogue. Am I right?

This one isn't really a simple yes or no. The only reason we had two DKs instead of more mages or rogues through HFC progression was for grips. Xhul, Manny, and Archi it was all but mandatory. Also there's group composition to account for. Going into Legion we have 9 leather mains, and 4 plate mains. Unholy isn't #1 but it's very, very strong and very much worth taking. No mass grip is unfortunate, but two single grips per DK and a taunt are excellent utility for the group. Honestly that second grip in itself is a pretty good reason for making your DKs play Unholy. But you're really just presenting a logical fallacy anyway.

do you actually have beta data that backs up your claims that frost will do less damage than unholy? im talking data that shows multiple builds for each spec. and certain artifact progression to back up.

There are many, many public logs from beta testing. It's not like this data is super secret and hard to find. It's somewhat tedious slogging through them and figuring out which logs are worth looking at and which ones are bad from poor play for sure. There's so much data out there it's almost overwhelming. I don't even understand why you're trying to retort with that one.


Look guys, Rune asked a question from people who only play Unholy, and I gave an answer and a little context from my perspective. I don't care if you play frost. It probably doesn't matter for casual guilds if your damage ceiling is a few percent lower. From my own personal perspective though, it does. Trying to argue about it with me isn't going to change the fact that virtually every dps DK in cutting edge progression will be playing UH.

[Piz813]

I don't know guys... the bracers nerf isn't too bad. Just DoD a heroic and been whacking the three 112 AoE dummies at our base. Seems fine. Doing more sustained damage as frost then UH with DA, epidemic, and DnD Clawing shadows. But sindragosa also crit for 2 million... I have 16 traits in each weapon. Finally got super zombie. Gomna try another 3 minutes with no frost scythe and see how that goes. I will saw the UH bracers do not proc as much as they did before. So back to castagator

[Gemini Soul]

I don't know guys... the bracers nerf isn't too bad. Just DoD a heroic and been whacking the three 112 AoE dummies at our base. Seems fine. Doing more sustained damage as frost then UH with DA, epidemic, and DnD Clawing shadows. But sindragosa also crit for 2 million... I have 16 traits in each weapon. Finally got super zombie. Gomna try another 3 minutes with no frost scythe and see how that goes. I will saw the UH bracers do not proc as much as they did before. So back to castagator

The DA is why, Soul Reaper is way better.

Heck for sustained on 3 targets, go Defile wait till mastery buff hits max stacks then Epidemicx3. Let the charges build and only use them when defile is over and you have the full stacks, which lets you CS spam in Defile for the cleave then epidemic spam when defile is over while you still have the maximum mastery stacks.

[NecroSleetstorm]

The DA is why, Soul Reaper is way better.

Heck for sustained on 3 targets, go Defile wait till mastery buff hits max stacks then Epidemicx3. Let the charges build and only use them when defile is over and you have the full stacks, which lets you CS spam in Defile for the cleave then epidemic spam when defile is over while you still have the maximum mastery stacks.

I think a great nerf to Unholy would be to Epidemic, would create a weakness for them. Make it happen, Blizzard! Plus he was probably only going off of burst for the purpose of testing.

[frychikn]

I specifically mentioned this was from that cutting edge perspective. You're right, if one's in a casual guild where nobody cares about where they rank or how they parse, it doesn't matter what they play. But as you acknowledged yourself, in my situation it does matter. TBH though in the situation you described, that player who can't play both specs well, especially the one with the higher ceiling, probably wouldn't make it through the app/trial process even if we were recruiting.




This one isn't really a simple yes or no. The only reason we had two DKs instead of more mages or rogues through HFC progression was for grips. Xhul, Manny, and Archi it was all but mandatory. Also there's group composition to account for. Going into Legion we have 9 leather mains, and 4 plate mains. Unholy isn't #1 but it's very, very strong and very much worth taking. No mass grip is unfortunate, but two single grips per DK and a taunt are excellent utility for the group. Honestly that second grip in itself is a pretty good reason for making your DKs play Unholy. But you're really just presenting a logical fallacy anyway.




There are many, many public logs from beta testing. It's not like this data is super secret and hard to find. It's somewhat tedious slogging through them and figuring out which logs are worth looking at and which ones are bad from poor play for sure. There's so much data out there it's almost overwhelming. I don't even understand why you're trying to retort with that one.


Look guys, Rune asked a question from people who only play Unholy, and I gave an answer and a little context from my perspective. I don't care if you play frost. It probably doesn't matter for casual guilds if your damage ceiling is a few percent lower. From my own personal perspective though, it does. Trying to argue about it with me isn't going to change the fact that virtually every dps DK in cutting edge progression will be playing UH.

my question to you is, is it not possible for the current sim data to be irrelevant when actual raiding starts be it hot fixes or whatever the case may be? or are you just 100% certain DKs in general, and frost DK ESPECIALLY are just fucked?

[Maxweii]

my question to you is, is it not possible for the current sim data to be irrelevant when actual raiding starts be it hot fixes or whatever the case may be? or are you just 100% certain DKs in general, and frost DK ESPECIALLY are just fucked?

It's entirely possible, and probable, that people are way off with how they rip on Frost so much. Good luck getting most people to admit that though.

[Baddok21]

The argument can be made...say you have two DKs...one is playing Frost one is playing unholy...you let it play out....frost dk is doing good so you figure he should do fine as unholy...make him switch...give him time to readjust but he hates it...As frost he did 200k...as unholy he's doing 175k. Come to find out he hates playing unholy. While yes...unholy has a higher ceiling...it has a lower ceiling for someone who hates the spec. lets say the DK who was playing unholy to begin with was doing 205k.....there's really no loss for letting the one who enjoys frost to play it(this obviously is a best case scenerio).

However mythic raiding is doable even without an optimal setup...my guild before last killed mythic archimonde with four ret pallies and no mages. Yes they slammed their heads against the wall way too long but the optimal setup really only applies to guilds in the top 500...after that....barring of course that the other spec isn't substantially behind, the use of suboptimal specs aren't whats holding the guild back.

- - - Updated - - -



Mage friend just said they were buffed but didn't explain much aside from that. I just had to look at all the fire ones...and sheesh they suck.

your premise is entirely off since if your a top 100 guild your raiders should generally be expected to hit 90-95 percentile regardless of there spec.

now what your hoping for is that a 90 percentile Unholy DK is much weaker than a 95 percentile Frost DK, this would be great if it were true but generally when blizzard makes 1 DK spec better the dmg of a 95 percentile frost is equal to a 80-85 percentile unholy.

but overall that Frost DK you speculated about is going to get a simple tell from a class officer:

"hey, i have been looking over your logs and your substantially lower than similar ilvl/geared UHDKs on these fights" - Officer

"Yeah, i dont really like Unholy that much, im probably not playing it as well as i should" - Raider

"Have you looked over some well known resources to improve your play" - Officer

"Frankly, i would prefer to play frost i am much better at it and enjoy it more" - Raider

"I understand, but were trying to progress at the best rate possible it would be greatly appreciated if you could do as much a possible" - Officer

Next week

"were going to bring you in for certain fights, since we have a new Dk/Rogue trial" - Officer

and that is the "nice" way of going about it, the melee DPS spot is the most coveted spot in a mythic raid, there is always another Melee DK willing to take that spot.

[Apollinaire]

my question to you is, is it not possible for the current sim data to be irrelevant when actual raiding starts be it hot fixes or whatever the case may be? or are you just 100% certain DKs in general, and frost DK ESPECIALLY are just fucked?

What are you going on about? DKs are in a great spot. Unholy is extremely strong all-around and frost isn't far behind. It doesn't matter how close it is though, for the group I play with, if it's not the better choice of the two I'm not playing it. Min-maxing is important to me. Simple as that. I don't think DKs are fucked at all. Your words there, not mine. Kind of baffled where you even made that connection tbh.

Sim data is made obsolete pretty quickly in a beta so there's not a whole lot to be gained from stressing over it. I've paid far more attention to actual fight data. Facts are facts, and frost doesn't compete. I don't give a shit if you guys play frost. That's your choice. I'm not here to convince you to play unholy instead. I just answered a question directed at unholy players.

Also, the post directly above this is pretty spot on.