Already too much to do before raids in Legion

[Deleted]

Maybe. I'm ballparking by the figures we see published on the front page every tier; how that number is skewed in Heroic/Mythic through alt accounts is getting into specifics that ballpark wasn't meant for. The gist of it still remains, however, that a breadth of content with engaging and desirable rewards across the spectrum is still vastly preferable, even if it puts extra strain on that top 5% of world-first and server-first progression guilds.

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You're either ignoring or willfully disregarding the fact that this was how things were in WoD. Raiders didn't have to craft, or run dungeons, or do daily quests, or do reputations, or PvP, or even set foot into LFR unless they were catching up on their ring on alts. WoD lost a record six million players within the first two quarters of 2015, and things got so bad by Q3 2015 that Blizzard stopped announcing subscriber figures (which were hovering around late-Vanilla numbers twelve years ago). The subscribers plummeted like that because the reward scheme and game design made crafting, reputations, dungeons, and LFR completely unrewarding in the name of ensuring raiders didn't feel forced to do them.

Again, if you want to reap the benefits of a hardcore playstyle, prepare to actually be expected to play at a hardcore level. Otherwise, your guild can take things a little slower and still readily clear Mythic mid-tier or late-tier unless you guys suck.

edit: Forgot 'crafting' in the group of things that were gutted out in WoD to streamline the raid readiness aspect of endgame

But how is that the fault of people who just likes to raid?

If you want to blame anyone for lack of content other than raiding and garrisons, then blame blizzard, not me. I really dont see why i should be the target here for merely wanting to get into the raids more conveniently.

[Fang7986]

"Blizzard, we need more content! GIVE US MORE!"

"Blizzard, you're giving us too much content! STOP IT!"

this is exactly why Blizzard shouldn't listen to players at all and just do whatever the f___ they want. Because there are too many players and their opinions are too varied.

[Thage]

But how is that the fault of people who just likes to raid?

If you want to blame anyone for lack of content other than raiding and garrisons, then blame blizzard, not me. I really dont see why i should be the target here for merely wanting to get into the raids more conveniently.

It's not the fault of the people who just like to raid, but the fact of the matter is that favoring that group of players cost Blizzard more than it was worth, which led them to out and admitting they'd made major mistakes in WoD (something they're reluctant to do, since this community likes to latch onto "We fucked up" as code for "Abandon ship, this mother's burning down."). I'm not targeting you for wanting to get into raids faster, I'm trying to explain that there is a price associated with streamlining like that and it's not a price that's healthy for the game's long-term survival. Non-raiding players make up the vast majority of an MMO's playerbase, and you need to give them a reason to keep logging in and paying to keep the game alive.

[Deathquoi]

Because i like to raid. I don't see that i should have to endure things that are not fun to have fun if they could both be fun. I raided since Burning Crusade, so it is not like this is new to me, but somehow Legion put me a bit off.

A lot of people in this thread seem to think raiders have to pass the rite of attunement, and by that i mean buying all their crafted stuff and go an endless amount of dungeons.

Crafting some bracers and a neck is not content, dont blame me if the only real content is raiding and some dungeons(not saying you are one of them death), blame blizzard. I just want to experience challenging raids without having to dump a huge amount of money or time to get ready besides consumeables.
I also dont like the idea that everyone in the guild is in some sort of artifact power race to drop the dps charts. I dont like the idea that the guy above me just grinded a bit more AP to have the advantage. I want him to be above me because he is a better player if we are talking equal gear.

The flip side of that is that Artifacts give people a reason to run dungeons after they've gotten most of the gear they need from them. You're looking at it as if you need to spam run dungeons just to remain competitive (you don't, because of Artifact Knowledge, the biggest gains are going to be gated and 1 time things, the items you get from dungeons that grant AP are pretty weak), whereas most people look at it as something to do as an expansion ages.

You're asking for a system where you run dungeons until you get to a starting ilvl and then there's no reason to run dungeons anymore and you just raid, where the only content outside of raids is collecting mounts, pets, and achievements. That's what we had in WoD and it was terrible and people hated it.

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But how is that the fault of people who just likes to raid?

If you want to blame anyone for lack of content other than raiding and garrisons, then blame blizzard, not me. I really dont see why i should be the target here for merely wanting to get into the raids more conveniently.

It's not the fault of people who just like to raid. What is their fault is the attitude that anything they don't want to do should be removed from the game so they don't feel compelled to do it.

[nephzor]

If you cant get to 850ilvl in 3weeks, then you're not as hardcore as you think you are. And besides, does it really matter if you are 840ilvl since i doubt you're a top raider otherwise you'd be used to that kind of "grind".

[MoanaLisa]

That figure is much lower in reality with the massive number of alt accounts that mythic raiders and even heroic raiders have.

I don't know if this is true. Generally we tabulate accounts where possible and I more or less refuse to believe that there are a massive number of raiders out there paying for multiple accounts when they can have a great many of their alts stashed on a server in one account.

Are there some? Sure. Massive numbers: I don't think so.

And for the OP: No, I don't sympathize. You either are willing to do what it takes or you aren't. If you are pushing progression in a top 25 guild then you aren't likely to be here complaining about too much to do. Most of those types understand what they signed up for and get about doing it so they can do the stuff they really like.

[Deleted]

I'm not sure where you get that somebody wants to beat mythic on day 1? For me and other people doing some competitive raiding is the entertainment I'm looking for in the game and not the mindless grinding. I personally don't mind doing some of the stuff the OP says at the start of an expansion, it's quite fun to do once in a while. But I don't get how people think their way to play the game is the only way someone might find enjoyment in the game and everyone else who thinks differently can go to hell and should stop playing? The hostility in this thread is mind boggling.

Well, we've had a full expansion now where you logged in, did your raid and then logged off. And people are tired of it. Time for the majority to have some fun again.

[RedNight at MMOC]

There is almost a full month before the Emerald Nightmare Normal and Heroic modes open up - that should be enough time to get prepared.

[Deathquoi]

I'm not sure where you get that somebody wants to beat mythic on day 1? For me and other people doing some competitive raiding is the entertainment I'm looking for in the game and not the mindless grinding. I personally don't mind doing some of the stuff the OP says at the start of an expansion, it's quite fun to do once in a while. But I don't get how people think their way to play the game is the only way someone might find enjoyment in the game and everyone else who thinks differently can go to hell and should stop playing? The hostility in this thread is mind boggling.

And yet you're sitting here saying that the content you don't want to do should be removed from the game because you don't want to feel compelled to do it. The only thing mind boggling is the irony in your post.

[OrcsRLame]

It's not the fault of the people who just like to raid, but the fact of the matter is that favoring that group of players cost Blizzard more than it was worth, which led them to out and admitting they'd made major mistakes in WoD (something they're reluctant to do, since this community likes to latch onto "We fucked up" as code for "Abandon ship, this mother's burning down."). I'm not targeting you for wanting to get into raids faster, I'm trying to explain that there is a price associated with streamlining like that and it's not a price that's healthy for the game's long-term survival. Non-raiding players make up the vast majority of an MMO's playerbase, and you need to give them a reason to keep logging in and paying to keep the game alive.

Just so we're clear, I'm a raider and I hated the WoD content drought. Loved HFC, hated the lack of not raid stuff. I think artifacts, titanforged, world quests and mythic+ are the best things that have ever been added to the game.

[Marrilaife]

And for the OP: No, I don't sympathize. You either are willing to do what it takes or you aren't. If you are pushing progression in a top 25 guild then you aren't likely to be here complaining about too much to do. Most of those types understand what they signed up for and get about doing it so they can do the stuff they really like.

Most of the people complaining are nowhere near world top 25. People who are up there as you said, know what they signed up for. Those who don't want to be there even though they have the skills, just populate slower progressed mythic guilds, but still see content done within reasonable timeframe just without bleeding and sweating themselves, they also accept the tradeoff.

People who complain I imagine are similar to those people who do 20-percentile parses but ask questions like "should I change my tauren boomkin to troll to do better dps?"

They think "correct" race, class, spec, enough ilvl or artifact power will give them an "I win" button and mysteriously turn them into Serenity raiders, and then sweat and cry when they can't achieve their goal, despite not realizing that goal is pointless and will not provide them what they crave.

While in reality there's only a handful of mythic guilds in a world's scale that require players to absolutely min max, the rest comprises of casual players only a bit more skilled than average, and on top of it, interested in organized raiding in the long run. In those guilds gms can't enforce anything players weren't willing to do already because they would have to replace the whole roster and that's not feasible. If the guild consists of "raid loggers" good luck to any gm trying to change that. He'll be lucky if players show up with flasks and food and in gear that is easily obtainable from doing your daily hc, weekly mythic dungeons and a handful of dailies.

They'll just start from normal emerald nightmare and do a few mythic+ in the first week and get close to 850 without grinding like a slave for 3 weeks straight.

[Deleted]

complaining theres to much to do, and probably complained in wod theres fuck all to do seriously no wonder blizzard doesnt listen to there player base

[Deathquoi]

Sure, it's good to have other content besides raiding. But I actually think that Blizz's policy of waiting a few weeks to release the raids, which was designed to keep people from rushing, has actually had the opposite effect. It's just added a megagrind for the top guilds in the first couple weeks.

Players from Paragon and Method etc. complained a lot about the grind necessary at the start of WoD - leveling 5 alts, getting garrisons up and running, farming BOEs, running challenge modes etc. When Method started clearing normal Highmaul they already had characters pushing 670, which is insane. As a result the top guilds have a couple weeks of massive alt grinding, then a week of grinding normal and heroics, then mythic raiding finally starts. I don't get how anyone does it.

If you release the raids at launch, the top guilds will still clear on heroic the first week (remember back in Cata, Paragon cleared 7 bosses in the first 30 hours of the expansion before the reset lol) but won't feel as pressured to grind until their eyes pop out of their skulls. Compresses the schedule a bit. Instead of focusing on gearing 5 alts in dungeons during the second week, they'll be raiding mythics on the 1-2 characters they have moderately geared.

You're not going to stop these maniacs from camping at their computers, peeing into Mountain Dew bottles and chugging Red Bull. You can't set up the game to cater to the psychos. There's no point in trying to protect them from themselves, because you can't. The only thing you can do is make it so that the more moderate players can take it slow.

[purebalance]

I don't know if this is true. Generally we tabulate accounts where possible and I more or less refuse to believe that there are a massive number of raiders out there paying for multiple accounts when they can have a great many of their alts stashed on a server in one account.

Are there some? Sure. Massive numbers: I don't think so.

And for the OP: No, I don't sympathize. You either are willing to do what it takes or you aren't. If you are pushing progression in a top 25 guild then you aren't likely to be here complaining about too much to do. Most of those types understand what they signed up for and get about doing it so they can do the stuff they really like.

Most of the top end raiders even around mythic era had at minimum 3 accounts back in the days of SS stacking around the Ulduar era. You can refuse all you want, but mythic players are more consistent in keep accounts subbed and having accounts than the supposed "casuals" and the mere existence of some of these accounts skew your numbers towards non raiders which is in truth falsely inflating the non raider numbers and the total number of players which makes the percent of mythic/heroic clearing players seem lower than it is.

[Marrilaife]

It's just added a megagrind for the top guilds (and for players in other guilds whose competitive culture encourage grinding until burnout) in the first couple weeks.

Players from Paragon and Method etc. complained a lot about the grind necessary at the start of WoD - leveling 5 alts, getting garrisons up and running, farming BOEs, running challenge modes etc. When Method started clearing normal Highmaul they already had characters pushing 670, which is insane. As a result the top guilds have a couple weeks of massive alt grinding, then a week of grinding normal and heroics, then mythic raiding finally starts. I don't get how anyone does it.

Top guilds will consume any amount of given time to turn it into advantage. However a lot of them disbanded or stepped down from the race because it wasn't worth it for them anymore to push themselves to the limit. It's exhausting for little benefit, profit or fame.

Blizzard trying to curb down the extra hardcore would only hurt the casuals. It's casuals who benefit from being given 3 weeks instead of less than 1 to level up, who benefit from flex raids and loot lockout instead of static ID, who are supposedly gonna benefit from keystone lockout on mythic+ instead of weekly lockout per dungeon or character.

It's something that cannot be blocked by Blizzard. I've read once someone suggested account wide lockout to prevent split runs with alts, immediate answer was: that will only make the hardcore create separate accounts for their alts. Make it more expensive but won't stop it.

[Servasus]

You're literally the reason we got WoD.

Please get out.

[Grandork]

The fact that this troll bait post is getting 12 pages is kinda sad. MMO-C will always be MMO-C I guess.

[Deleted]

Better "too much" than "not enough".

[Mayonnaise]

The fact that this troll bait post is getting 12 pages is kinda sad. MMO-C will always be MMO-C I guess.

the community is a cesspool of idiots. these are type of people blizzard listens to when it comes to making the game easier because they are the majority of the player base.

[Sluvs]

Not sure why you're so hostile :S

It's ok that some people like dailies and dungeons while some don't surely? No need for these insults?

The problem is, if blizzard does what you ask, we lose content and you ruin the game for us. So what are you asking is literally to get 90% of ppl that are not mythic raiders to tolerate lack of content just so you can raid mythic without putting hour of work into it.

But if blizzard does what we say (more content) this means taht you will get to play the game that you like more and have more sources of gear than usual.

So your request would benefit no one but you and the mythic raiders at the expense of everybody else. That's why people are being rude, because you are being selfish.