Jaina's Future

[Deleted]

They called retreat pretty much immediately after Legion's spaceships warped in and bombarded the shit out of them. Unless you request that the Horde uses precognition during war or at least retreats, they wouldn't have called the retreat earlier than they did. And you can argue all you want, but sounding the horn was a clear sign they will be retreating and somehow the Alliance understood it just fine.

You're always arguing it was a clear sign of retreat but it wasn't. It was sign they're gone now. Without any kind of prior warning. I guess you'll spin it like they did hold out that long for alliance to do their thing which just makes them shitty decision makers. The right thing to do was retreat and give their current, for this battle, allies time to react beyond "we're out of here" after already dropping any kind of offensive or defensive line. Why? To lessen the losses on both sides for the upcoming battle(s) with the legion. Would that have meant retreating even sooner? Possibly. Would it have saved lives on either side? Certainly.

So the Purge of Dalaran and Jaina rejoining the Alliance didn't happen?

So what are you getting at with this comment?

• Dalaran being the reaction to what Wrynn said? It's a Kirin'tor thing and happened before SoO.
• That is was justified for Vol'Jin to insult alliance players? He requested our help, usually a bad time to insult someone.
• That it was a "fist pumping moment for the alliance"? Which was just cut off with 5.4 and we had several weeks of insults and later months of the same raid to remind us of those insults.
• Something different?

You actually do see what is happening on the Horde side. The spaceships warping in and the following bombardment is visible from Alliance position. And since the gunship arrived shortly after, it had great aerial view. And even in case of the cinematic itself, you see an army of Felguards arriving where the Dark Rangers were seconds after they left. And not only are archers in the back generally speaking, the Dark Rangers weren't even part of the same front as the rest of the Horde. So for the demons to reach those back positions so quickly (and they were marching, not running) it's obvious the Horde formation had to be broken even before they called for retreat.

• Was there a reason for the alliance to look up after the horde should've covered the skies and with the kind of enemies they had in front of them? No.
• Is there an army of Felguards arriving seconds after the rangers left? No. The actual progression in the cinematic is that the horn is being sounded and the rangers leave without any real haste. They just "walk" away from the cliff. After that the airship swoops in and only after that (about 20 seconds later) there are demons walking towards the edge of the cliff, again without any real haste.
• Did the alliance airship see what happened on the horde side? First they were probably focused on the enemies in front of them and on rescuing alliance forces. Now what is actually shown in the cinematic? Well it's a bit ambiguous IMO. You don't see the position while it swoops in (in regards to the cliff, just the alliance side of the battle) and it's not really clear after that. After the rescue of the alliance forces while the big Fel Reaver is crashing to the ground and the ship is evading it, the ship is below the cliff and as such had no view of the plateau. In the scene were the Reaver grabs the ship it looks like they're above it but there are no forces of any kind to be seen.
• After Varian starts his show on the ground there are forces showing up from the direction into which the ship is fleeing which is the direction of the path the alliance took to get to that place. As such either some demons surrounded the alliance during the rescue or some demons had the time to travel all the way to some kind of crossing and walk up to that position again.

Revamp of Orgrimmar.

What? But OG didn't even matter for that quest? I wish they'd finally setup some kind of team to keep such content. It's so rich on story, interaction etc. *sigh*

Blizzard is well aware of the mega popularity of Battle for The Undercity. The Scenarios that turned out being MOP-exclusive opened the door to it being brought back at some point. It would be EPIC if they did it like Broken Shore and made it a cross-faction Raid: You talk to Broll Bearmantle in Darnassus or Thrall in Durotar, who separately recall the battle to punish those responsible for the Wrathgate Incident. Boom, you join a 40-man raid cross-faction and separately conquer the city, ending after Putress/Varimathras is downed. You then have the post-battle sequence ^_^

I can't see that happening. They don't care about all the things attached to the legendary quest lines. That thing is toast - it would cost us a raid tier. Even if it would be kind of cool.

Genn doesn't care for the Horde at all either, but his experience and reach is alot smaller than Jaina, and she decides to abandon and NOT HELP her long loooong allies, including a 18-19 year old who could fucking really use her help because she can't stand the thought of a Horde crossing paths with her.

Why else would she leave the Kirin-Tor at the most crucial time that the entire planet needs her the most?

In a not all serious way probably because of this (Jaina don't do that thing!).

As long as we get to pillage Jaina's village in the next expansion, i'll be happy.

Pillage that crater all you want. I hope you get some mana radiation poisoning?

[Mehrunes]

You're always arguing it was a clear sign of retreat but it wasn't. It was sign they're gone now. Without any kind of prior warning. I guess you'll spin it like they did hold out that long for alliance to do their thing which just makes them shitty decision makers. The right thing to do was retreat and give their current, for this battle, allies time to react beyond "we're out of here" after already dropping any kind of offensive or defensive line. Why? To lessen the losses on both sides for the upcoming battle(s) with the legion. Would that have meant retreating even sooner? Possibly. Would it have saved lives on either side? Certainly.

Weird. Because the cinematics show Horde still being there when the horn was sound and then retreating only afterwards. And again, unless you want to argue that the Horde betrayed the Alliance or some bullshit like that because they had no precognition to see the Fel Carriers warping in and nuking their asses before that actually happened, there was no reason for the Horde to sound the horn earlier. Spaceships warp in, bomb the Horde, cinematic triggers and the Horde retreats. And the retreat lessened losses on both sides. The Horde would be obliterated if they waited and the Alliance retreated immediately afterwards with no significant losses caused by the Horde's retreat because the Felguards and Infernals from the ridge didn't exactly blink from a cliff onto the Alliance position. So the Alliance left when they lost long term aerial cover, with the gunship clearing the skies at the moment removing the Felbat risk anyway and the Alliance retreated from an unwinnable fight.

So what are you getting at with this comment?

• Dalaran being the reaction to what Wrynn said? It's a Kirin'tor thing and happened before SoO.
• That is was justified for Vol'Jin to insult alliance players? He requested our help, usually a bad time to insult someone.
• That it was a "fist pumping moment for the alliance"? Which was just cut off with 5.4 and we had several weeks of insults and later months of the same raid to remind us of those insults.
• Something different?

Reaction to what Wrynn said? Wat? That comment didn't even mentioned Wrynn and he's not relevant to the fist pump moment. You complained that the fist pump was devoid of meaning. The fist pump moment was the Purge of Dalaran. It had plenty meaning.

Was there a reason for the alliance to look up after the horde should've covered the skies and with the kind of enemies they had in front of them? No.

Unless the Alliance suffers from ultimate tunnel vision the idea that no one on the Alliance side, especially the mages in the back would not see ultra bright green light beams at all is kinda baseless.

Is there an army of Felguards arriving seconds after the rangers left? No. The actual progression in the cinematic is that the horn is being sounded and the rangers leave without any real haste. They just "walk" away from the cliff. After that the airship swoops in and only after that (about 20 seconds later) there are demons walking towards the edge of the cliff, again without any real haste.

20 seconds later isn't exactly minutes earlier, is it? And yes, the demons were walking without any real haste, which was part of my point.

Did the alliance airship see what happened on the horde side? First they were probably focused on the enemies in front of them and on rescuing alliance forces. Now what is actually shown in the cinematic? Well it's a bit ambiguous IMO. You don't see the position while it swoops in (in regards to the cliff, just the alliance side of the battle) and it's not really clear after that. After the rescue of the alliance forces while the big Fel Reaver is crashing to the ground and the ship is evading it, the ship is below the cliff and as such had no view of the plateau. In the scene were the Reaver grabs the ship it looks like they're above it but there are no forces of any kind to be seen.

Tunnel vision again. Before the gunship descended they had no enemies to focus on. They focused on the enemies only after they descended and turned sideways to position themselves to shoot. Alliance soldiers would be on the lookout prior to that and since the Felbats come from Horde's direction they'd focus there. And after the land team retreated to the gunship and before Gul'dan summoned the Fel Reaver they had ample time to see the swarm of demons on the ridge in full view.

After Varian starts his show on the ground there are forces showing up from the direction into which the ship is fleeing which is the direction of the path the alliance took to get to that place. As such either some demons surrounded the alliance during the rescue or some demons had the time to travel all the way to some kind of crossing and walk up to that position again.

There were demons all over the place even prior to that. Genn was fighting with demons behind Varian's position earlier in the cinematic. Not to mention the meteor created a clusterfuck and with Alliance on the gunship the demons had free reign to move wherever.

What? But OG didn't even matter for that quest? I wish they'd finally setup some kind of team to keep such content. It's so rich on story, interaction etc. *sigh*

You first reported to Orgrimmar and saw Forsaken refugees. Then the throne room scene in the old Grommash Hold. They ran out of time even with Cataclysm content, they had no time to fix WotLK content. Maybe the flying in old world also was a factor.

[Deleted]

Weird. Because the cinematics show Horde still being there when the horn was sound and then retreating only afterwards. And again, unless you want to argue that the Horde betrayed the Alliance or some bullshit like that because they had no precognition to see the Fel Carriers warping in and nuking their asses before that actually happened, there was no reason for the Horde to sound the horn earlier. Spaceships warp in, bomb the Horde, cinematic triggers and the Horde retreats. And the retreat lessened losses on both sides. The Horde would be obliterated if they waited and the Alliance retreated immediately afterwards with no significant losses caused by the Horde's retreat because the Felguards and Infernals from the ridge didn't exactly blink from a cliff onto the Alliance position. So the Alliance left when they lost long term aerial cover, with the gunship clearing the skies at the moment removing the Felbat risk anyway and the Alliance retreated from an unwinnable fight.

How much time passed between sounding the horn and turning away from the ridge? Was there any kind of gesture that told the alliance that they would like to support them but they couldn't?

Again what makes it such a letdown isn't that the horde retreated, it's that they did so without any kind of thought of what would happen to the other faction. The reason they sounded the horn wasn't to inform the other faction it was to safe their own kin. Vol'Jin wasn't even dead, neither was Thrall or any of the other big players. They were wounded but if you look at the scene were Windrunner picks him up, there aren't even any demons near them. The defensive line is a good distance away.

Reaction to what Wrynn said? Wat? That comment didn't even mentioned Wrynn and he's not relevant to the fist pump moment. You complained that the fist pump was devoid of meaning. The fist pump moment was the Purge of Dalaran. It had plenty meaning.

How was the Dalaran thing, something in a neutral City, a fist pump moment for the alliance? Especially after it was a simple reaction to a betrayal? Besides that, I was pretty clearly referring to the end of MoP, SoO - and what did Wrynn say at the end of it? That the alliance will end the horde if they're dishonorable again. Further more I was talking with someone else about a possible continuation and that there wouldn't be anything coming from Wrynns statement at that point nor will there be in the future. Obviously for game but that ending for SoO without any kind consequences just left a sour taste.

Unless the Alliance suffers from ultimate tunnel vision the idea that no one on the Alliance side, especially the mages in the back would not see ultra bright green light beams at all is kinda baseless.

Yes and who is going to lend an ear to some frightened foot solider or battle mage? And It's just not part of what you play on the alliance side. You're busy staring at legs and crotches of demons. You have some big, well known demons right in front of you. Why would you look at the sky at things that don't even get near you? You do know we were fighting and not just chilling, right?

20 seconds later isn't exactly minutes earlier, is it? And yes, the demons were walking without any real haste, which was part of my point.

Neither did the horde retreat show any haste. Image you don't know the horde cinematic and the only thing you get to see/hear is a horn followed by rangers walking (literally, not running but walking) away from the cliff like they were going for a shopping stroll. What would your impression be? That it was a needed retreat that required a certain haste because a flank broke or that they just let you down? In addition to this there probably applies the usual movie/cinematic thing: Just because it lasted 20 seconds in the cinematic doesn't tell you anything about the IRL passage of time and as the rangers are retreating pretty leisurely, my impression is that there passed quite a bit of time between those moments or they were just walking into there death with absolute resignation. Is the horde that broken?

Tunnel vision again. Before the gunship descended they had no enemies to focus on. They focused on the enemies only after they descended and turned sideways to position themselves to shoot. Alliance soldiers would be on the lookout prior to that and since the Felbats come from Horde's direction they'd focus there. And after the land team retreated to the gunship and before Gul'dan summoned the Fel Reaver they had ample time to see the swarm of demons on the ridge in full view.

Why would they not have any enemies to focus on? You do remember the crashed horde ship, right? Certainly there was stuff going on even before coming up to that position and even without it they had to evaluate the enemies that were in front of the alliance army in order to decide how to tackle them and as by the time they get down to the battlefield, according to you, the sign for retreat was already given it's probably safe to assume they focused on getting the alliance troops onto the ship ASAP. This doesn't mean nobody saw it but apparently, according to how Blizzard tells it, no high ranking member saw it (probably because they were busy saving lives) and neither faction bothered to send an envoy to clear up any kind of misunderstandings. Not even Khadgar bothered to check-in with either faction on that topic.

There were demons all over the place even prior to that. Genn was fighting with demons behind Varian's position earlier in the cinematic. Not to mention the meteor created a clusterfuck and with Alliance on the gunship the demons had free reign to move wherever.

Make up your mind about what counts. Either it's the cinematic or it is the ingame events. Either you can climb up/down that cliff or it an obstacle that prevents travel between both sides.

The big Fel Reaver came down and caused a fel-like cloud that would prevent either party to see anything and would prevent the demons from moving easily either. If we take into account what happened ingame there were no demons coming up from behind. So either the demons from the cliff had to climb it or circle around to get behind Varian (would me some considerable time passed) or we assume what happened in the cinematic in which case there might actually be demons behind him. If you take the stance the cinematic counts, there were no spaceships. They are not in the cinematic. There was no bombardment of the horde.

[Magnagarde]

The difference is Thrall saved Orgrimmar from Jaina and still forgave her for her plan to wipe them out.

Not really. She saved it herself by deciding not to wipe everyone inside. If she was intent on slaughtering everyone in Orgrimmar, she would've done it, regardless of who is asking her not to do so. All Thrall did is ask her not to do it, but the decision not to do it was hers.

The difference between a human and an orc in a nutshell. We've seen that orcs that are not infused with demonic blood still wanted to invade Azeroth.

I would've been disappointed had Jaina's character remained the naive diplomat that she was during Warcraft 3 and the first few expansions of WoW.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The difference between a human and an orc in a nutshell. We've seen that orcs that are not infused with demonic blood still wanted to invade Azeroth.

after manipulations and shown visions of a future. People always seem to leave that out.

[Aurabolt]

I can't see that happening. They don't care about all the things attached to the legendary quest lines. That thing is toast - it would cost us a raid tier. Even if it would be kind of cool.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Thing is, Blizz explicitly said they are looking for a way to bring the Battle for the Undercity back down the road but there's rush or anything. You read into my comment on Scenarios opening the door to that possability a bit too much. LOL.

Also you're dead wrong on implementing it costing a Raid Tier: Cataclysm revamped all the 1-60 Dungeons yet they added an additional Raid Tier + Quest Hub (Firelands) and two more dungeons (ZA and ZG) in addition to DS and the 3 related Dungeons (WotA, EoT and HoT).

WoD is the bastard child of the WoW expansions in regards to content (Two tiers and no new dungeons), I'll give it that. The only new content was Tanaan Jungle (which we knew was coming) and Hellfire Citadel. Everything else came at launch or went live a few months afterward. At least MoP added four Max Level quest hubs (Isle of Thunder, Timeless Isle, Operation Landfall and Battlefield Barrens) in addition to SoO.

[Dartz1979]

As much as I hate Jaina and the poor writing and story direction she's recieved, it would be awesome to kill her off and her risen by Sylvannas as part of the Forsaken. Then have her story revolve around being fiercely, almost blindly, loyal to the Horde. Then later one finding a balance and perhaps take up lead of the Argent Crusade

No.. I don't ever want Jaina to be killed off she's the only attractive female lore character left on alliance... i mean who else is left?

[Arrashi]

No.. I don't ever want Jaina to be killed off she's the only attractive female lore character left on alliance... i mean who else is left?

Mekkatorque. I would tap that ass 5/7 days.

[enragedgorilla]

Seriously? She is going to do the Garrosh. We will have to fight her at one point. That girl is dangerously mad at the Horde and at us for collaborating with them again. SHe is probably building some sort of bomb to get revanche. Every little gray hair is a symbol for her getting insane. Trust me. In 2 years I'll be coming back to this and I'll be like "huh... see, I told you".

My very far-fetched theory that probably isn't true: she died with the rest of theramores citizens and has been replaced by a demon since.

The demon thing is not very likely, she was standing in the throne room when the Demon Hunters were "brought into the fold" on the alliance side, she would have glowed red/been noticed...unless she drank fel AFTER that moment (No body likes me , Everybody hates me I guess I'll go drink Fel!) seeing the Alliance think on a "global" level rather than pursue her single minded policy of revenge for Theramore (since Garrosh is dead the person responsible is gone,so genocide is the answer !)
Seriously , she thinks they can take on the "new Legion" all alone as the Alliance? While then fighting a 2nd front with the Horde who is trying to fight the same "new legion" That is just plain stupidity, not something I "hope" would come out of a learned mind like hers.

I used to like the style of JP even though she was written a bit more on the "sally sweet" side of things, I just let it go as she was a learned Mage/Bookworm type who was a bit more able to see the bigger picture than those around her in the Alliance.
Oh, how I was wrong.

Yeah, I was bummed when a certain High leader of the Alliance died by being plugged into a "fel batterie" he wasn't rated for, I was starting to like his writing.
Was hoping JP would make the change fully to baddy OR she would get noble all of a sudden and ...remember who she was , acting accordingly rather than the pissy,emo, snit fit style she is now.

[Deleted]

No.. I don't ever want Jaina to be killed off she's the only attractive female lore character left on alliance... i mean who else is left?

Tyrande, Yrel, There are various smaller characters that pop up from time to time. The revenge driven ship captain at the start of MoP is still alive I believer. But it would take time to develop them.

That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Thing is, Blizz explicitly said they are looking for a way to bring the Battle for the Undercity back down the road but there's rush or anything. You read into my comment on Scenarios opening the door to that possability a bit too much. LOL.

Also you're dead wrong on implementing it costing a Raid Tier: Cataclysm revamped all the 1-60 Dungeons yet they added an additional Raid Tier + Quest Hub (Firelands) and two more dungeons (ZA and ZG) in addition to DS and the 3 related Dungeons (WotA, EoT and HoT).

WoD is the bastard child of the WoW expansions in regards to content (Two tiers and no new dungeons), I'll give it that. The only new content was Tanaan Jungle (which we knew was coming) and Hellfire Citadel. Everything else came at launch or went live a few months afterward. At least MoP added four Max Level quest hubs (Isle of Thunder, Timeless Isle, Operation Landfall and Battlefield Barrens) in addition to SoO.

Yet they skipped Ghostlands and Silvermoon with Cata. It's not that I'd not like them to bring it back but with what little they've shown in that regard I just can't see it happen and that raid tier thing was an excuse on some occasions before when it was about revamping old content. It just kind of stuck with me. Still I'd be pleasantly surprised so lets hope for the best.

[Spunt]

\

Pillage that crater all you want. I hope you get some mana radiation poisoning?

As long as Jaina dies, I'll be happy. She's a terribly written character they need to kill off and just move on. She's useless and serves no purpose anymore.

[Deleted]

In the Broken Shore scenario, when Gul'dan summons in all the named demons we've killed over the years (like Brutallus, Mal'Ganis, etc), notice that a former second in command of Undercity is missing. Who was one of the two main characters involved in his death? Jaina. Therefore, Jaina is Varimrathras. I'm calling it.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

Get thee to a nunery. Jaina's been through too much for anyone's sanity. She deserves to live out her days in peace somewhere, anonymous and quiet, meditating on the Light.

[Chipskunk]

if only there was a way to just seal her away...blue dragon cubes perhaps?

[Traveler Voltin]

I think Sylvanas will join the burning Legion if they offer her immortality. After all, she's a construct made by a former servant of the Legion.

She didn't do it the first time they offered.
What makes you think she would now?

Oh wait you are bias

[Delphirus]

What bothers me about ALl of this is their apparent ping ponging with her personality. She went from fine to bat shit crazy (understandably) to moderate back to insane. In MoP she got "better" as the expansion went on then out of nowhere they put that little scene with her in the final siege cinematic. Her disgust there was totally unneeded and did literally nothing because nothing came of it. It served no purpose. Then outside of game in War Crimes (which is canon btw) she was upset then decided to give up on her hatred for the greater good. WoD she was wary but accepting but now flash forward to Legion and she is back to square one.

It's like they don't know what to do with her anymore and its frustrating. Either get rid of her or just make her become a background character that doesn't do anything anymore. Stop shoehorning her into things just to remove her again. They went through all the trouble of making her leader of the Kirin Tor just to totally back pedal on it and then remove her from that seat an expansion later.

Why?

This. This is why I think Blizzard might actually be running with the whole "Jaina is a dreadlord" thing. It would fit. Perhaps, at some point, she DID go back to Kul'tiras, only to be taken prisoner, and the Legion couldn't pass up an opportunity to sow discord on Azeroth. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that the Legion would have agents there. It would certainly explain a lot of her behavior, plus give us a reason to go there (maybe as a patch 7.3 mini raid?) to rescue her. Would certainly be more interesting than having her storm off in a huff and disappear for the rest of the expansion.

[Guntank17]

This. This is why I think Blizzard might actually be running with the whole "Jaina is a dreadlord" thing. It would fit. Perhaps, at some point, she DID go back to Kul'tiras, only to be taken prisoner, and the Legion couldn't pass up an opportunity to sow discord on Azeroth. It wouldn't be unreasonable to think that the Legion would have agents there. It would certainly explain a lot of her behavior, plus give us a reason to go there (maybe as a patch 7.3 mini raid?) to rescue her. Would certainly be more interesting than having her storm off in a huff and disappear for the rest of the expansion.

What I fear is that the real reason Blizzard is flip-flopping with Jaina's personality is due to something really, really stupid and/or OOC --- such as, say, wanting to pair Kalec with someone else (probably a new character to be introed in Legion, or either pairing him again with Tyrygosa or even resurrecting Anveena somehow) for the sake of having proper Blue Dragonflight offspring or something along those lines. Making Jaina a Dreadlord would fit in that Blizzard would want everyone to hate her as utterly and expediently as possible so as to make said other woman look good and saintly.

Thing is that Blizzard already had a precedent for this kind of tripe when Aggra was introduced back in Cata, in fact, and if this really is the case IMO Jaina is being made universally hated and irredeemably evil also precisely because of the problems that plagued Aggra back then: Aggra was basically made specifically to sink a certain Fan-Preferred Couple, and while she was advertised and toted by Metzen to be this 'perfect mate' for Thrall (I believe in one of the Blizzcons Metzen said that the whole reason for Aggra is because Thrall needed to 'have brown-skinned Orc babies') she turned out to be even less likeable among much of the Warcraft fanbase than the pairing she was meant to kill in the first place. Aggra's still sort of infamously reviled to this day for that, IIRC.

That kind of stupid, OOC reason would go beyond simple bad writing: Bad writing I can understand, if not stand. This, though, is either on the level of those really, really bad fanfics we all saw back when the Harry Potter fandom went apeshit after Book 4 (say, those ones that say 'Ron is evil and kicks puppies because I hates Ron and Harry and Hermione are my troo OTP'), or Metzen pulling a Brian Clevinger* to say 'neener, neener, Jaina is evil now, so shut up' to a certain portion of fans. I dread to think of Blizzard pulling that exact same bullcrap again in either case.

* -- Basically, what happened was that when 8BT was still running, Black Belt got killed, and a lot of fans speculated that he can be brought back into the main story by resurrecting a petrified clone of him earlier. Brian Clevinger apparently got annoyed at this and had White Mage do just that...after half of Black Belt's head got eroded, causing his head to explode. That whole comic and the title "Now Shut Up" is therefore Clevinger basically giving those fans the middle finger and reinforcing the fact that Black Belt is not coming back.

[mrlowrider]

Jaina's future is in a bed with Sylvanas

[Kordan]

They've butchered her character so much I don't care anymore. I was reading The Tides of War with disbelieve on my face.

[Deleted]

Jaina's future is in a bed with Sylvanas

Sylvanas in Jainas bed ... that could be fun - as a fanfic.

...

Why is there no +1 button?