Momentum vs Nemesis

[shammypie]

You think that going Demon Blades / Nemesis and mashing your Chaos Strike button with your eyes closed should bring only 5% less DPS than the extreme skill and awareness requirements of Mastery/Prepared/Momentum ?

What I especially enjoy are people calling stuff with more than 2 buttons to press and some timers to track "clunky". What even gives you satisfaction when playing a game?

YES, it should only be 5% behind that's the point of having choices.

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Not just raiding, let's be honest here. It's not like Nemesis is useful for questing, dungeons, or aoe scenarios. Nemesis is exactly a RAID talent, given its nature as a long cooldown meant for a single target.

Momentum is just flat out better at everything for anything that isn't PvP.

if eruption wasn't on the same tier it would be better for pvp as well.

[Faenlyn]

Not just raiding, let's be honest here. It's not like Nemesis is useful for questing, dungeons, or aoe scenarios. Nemesis is exactly a RAID talent, given its nature as a long cooldown meant for a single target.

Momentum is just flat out better at everything for anything that isn't PvP.

I think you are misunderstanding Nemesis or at least only reading the first part of the tooltip. After the original target dies the buff remains active against the same mob type for the remaining duration. So where the talent shines is exactly in dungeons and questing where you will be killing mobs of exactly the same type i.e. humanoid, dragonkin etc. and there is some brief down time between pulls. With a 1 min duration and a 2 minute cooldown Nemesis will be available and active for constant 20% buff almost every time you engage in combat as long as the mob type doesnt change which it usually doesnt in a dungeon or quest area.

[AvCloudy]

Momentum proponents spend half their time saying that momentum doesn't change the rotation and that you will be using the abilities anyway, so if you don't like it go away, and then the other half saying that momentum is a high skill talent that should be the highest dps.

These two things are mutually exclusive. Pick one. Either it is the class default for all talents in that line, or it is a high skill change to the rotation.

People want to feel like their class is high skill, you know? Most of the time, it's not. But it is on some fights and in some situations. And by comparison to braindead DB+Nemesis builds, and some other specs, it's a lot more difficult.

A high skill player, regardless of his talent choices, will be playing most of the momentum playstyle. The key differences are VR usage and skill usage during momentum. If you don't like fel rushing for damage, you are absolutely, unequivocally, in the wrong class.

[Pigglix]

My only gripe with "momentum" build is the prepared talent, gaming VR is such a pain in the ass, but if only they make momentum stack, so we could always VR and FR back.

Or you know, maybe, but -maybe- they will make Felblade baseline and make prepared work with ffelblade instead of VR (yeah, i wouldnt mind if they remove the proc chance of it)

[Cronovey]

My only gripe with "momentum" build is the prepared talent, gaming VR is such a pain in the ass, but if only they make momentum stack, so we could always VR and FR back.

Or you know, maybe, but -maybe- they will make Felblade baseline and make prepared work with ffelblade instead of VR (yeah, i wouldnt mind if they remove the proc chance of it)

All they really need to do is make Felblade Chaos damage instead of fire so it actually has a scaling besides attack power. It would make the playstyle easier and less clunky feeling (Fel Rush isn't bad, but Vengeful Retreat is very annoying) and then we might actually have options in the other tiers of talents because Felblade may be more comparable to Bloodlet when it scales with mastery. This also potentially opens up Demon Reborn on 108 to increase our Momentum uptime with the Blur reset and the artifact trait to give you 2 charges of Fel Rush when you use Blur, and wouldn't force us to have to sit there using Throw Glaive on a single target for the bleed.

It'll make mastery a more valuable stat rather than the bottom of the barrel it is right now, promote a more active playstyle with an extra rotational button that gets resets to add variety to our play instead of just using Throw Glaive every cooldown, make Momentum feel less awful for people who don't really like the playstyle but are going to be forced to use it, and also smooth out our Fury generation since it generates a consistent amount of Fury every time it's used. Hell, put it ON Momentum if it's a movement ability as well, it would only make sense, or have it extend the duration of Momentum if specced into it. You could use VR or FR for the Momentum buff, then Felblade in for the extended duration and fish for resets and this would result in a much more active playstyle that also gave great uptime on Momentum.

[Deleted]

honestly....they're not going to Change anything but numbers this late in the game........i love the momentum build but i hate prepared..........

but i would love to see something like what the poster above me wrote

[Nezia]

And that's why a third spec as needed. I can very clearly see blizzard nerffing momentum/felrush so that it becomes an option and will no longer be a damage increase over other options, thanks to all whining around "I wanna be Illidan but I don't like the playstyle". But then why would anyone pick something that forces them into a dangerous and risky playstyle with no major benefits?

[Schizoide]

It's completely possible to offer multiple playstyles within the same spec via talents. That is, in fact, what talents are for.

The effort required to rotationally reposition should absolutely be rewarded. But it shouldn't be a massive 20% reward, and players should be able to opt-out of doing it via talents-- that's all we want.

[Wyrt]

And that's why a third spec as needed. I can very clearly see blizzard nerffing momentum/felrush so that it becomes an option and will no longer be a damage increase over other options, thanks to all whining around "I wanna be Illidan but I don't like the playstyle". But then why would anyone pick something that forces them into a dangerous and risky playstyle with no major benefits?

Are you complaining about people wanting talents to be properly balanced? Really?

[Nezia]

Are you complaining about people wanting talents to be properly balanced? Really?

Yep, in this case I am. Momentum/felrush must always be stronger than other options if played right, what would be the point of risking yourself otherwise?

[Wyrt]

Yep, in this case I am. Momentum/felrush must always be stronger than other options if played right, what would be the point of risking yourself otherwise?

It shouldn't have higher damage just because you run yourself into fire with it.

[AvCloudy]

It shouldn't have higher damage just because you run yourself into fire with it.

Do you not like the possibility of degenerate gameplay rewards (ie, you don't want people killing themselves by using skills poorly) or do you not think that high-management talents should outperform more passive talent choices at all?

[Nezia]

It shouldn't have higher damage just because you run yourself into fire with it.

Then let me ask you again what would be the point of playing in a way that may get you killed and forces you to watch your position the entire time over one that is safer and easier to play and perform?

[Wyrt]

Then let me ask you again what would be the point of playing in a way that may get you killed and forces you to watch your position the entire time over one that is safer and easier to play and perform?

Don't Fel Rush into the fire. It isn't hard.

[Nezia]

Ok... you really are helpless :/.

[Wyrt]

Ok... you really are helpless :/.

My dislike of Momentum isn't using Fel Rush. I'm perfectly fine with Fel Mastery. I hate damage windows and that's all Momentum is in the end.

[Vanyali]

It'll make mastery a more valuable stat rather than the bottom of the barrel it is right now, promote a more active playstyle with an extra rotational button that gets resets to add variety to our play instead of just using Throw Glaive every cooldown, make Momentum feel less awful for people who don't really like the playstyle but are going to be forced to use it,.

Mastery won't get better with Fblade being chaos (it sucks because it scales like dogshit compared to versa) and every talent in that row gives you an extra button to push. Flblade isn't special in that regard.


It also doesn't affect momentum play much given you should never be far enough away to get the mini-charge.

[Lucrece]

Yep, in this case I am. Momentum/felrush must always be stronger than other options if played right, what would be the point of risking yourself otherwise?

Because several of those other abilities are also active skills, not passives. What's the point of choice if it really isn't a choice.

[Raikh]

Because several of those other abilities are also active skills, not passives. What's the point of choice if it really isn't a choice.

They never implemented a version of the talent trees that was purely about personal preferences. There are some degrees to that and sometimes talents are so close that it end sup being preference but more often than not talents are either balanced after difficulty to manage/risk-reward or situational application (AoE vs ST for instance).

As long as fel eruption and Nemesis remain "use this on CD" buttons they have no right to outperform or even tie with momentum. Momentum is not only significantly more difficult to manage (not in the sense of being really really difficult, talking by comparison) but also brings significant risks with it tied to that management. As long as you don't press nemesis on a lowly add without the boss sharing its creature type you can't really do anything wrong with it.

If they were all exactly of the same strength momentum wouldn't be a real option, since it bears risk but no advantage, thus making it effectively wors ethan the other two.

The hcoice of that tier lies within trading risk for potential or even utility if the stun of fel eruption applies. Chosing talents rarely ever was about picking what you like and your favorite being your choice without impacting your ouput. And for those who are likely to make mistakes in the heat of battle it is a choice even when output is considered. Those who can play their game perfectly and can beta the risk will ofcourse have momentum be a clear winner for ouput as they can relatively safely reap its rewards. Talents like that have existed the last expansion, too, and they haven't changed their philosophy on them, so its really nothing new.

[Haram]

The problem I have with the momentum tier of talents is the following:

I don't mind Momentum being the "best and most flexible choice". That is fine. Even if the damage difference was 10% between Momentum and Nemesis. However, it isn't. It is much higher than that in certain situations. In any encounter with AOE, there is absolutely no choice except either take Momentum or gimp yourself. Nemesis is a niche AOE and isn't reliable enough to even come close to Momentum's damage.

I think the issue with Momentum being the only viable AoE talent in that tier by a mile completely removes the choice in many encounters. The objective of MoP talents was to provide choice on playstyle as well as what the encounter required, but I don't think it was anyone's intention to have a specific talent be best in pretty much every single situation, and by such a massive margin.