How can people say now that Sylvanas isnt evil ?

[Bathory]

I wouldn't call her evil, I'd call her desperate. She's running out of options and she's running out of time. If she fails, her race becomes extinct. Find me a parent who wouldn't lie/cheat/steal/kill for their child on the edge of death.

[Maxilian]

As cute as your avatar is I have to disagree with you!

It is? Gul'dan serves a master who gave him power and new life basically...he serves for power...she uses people in a quest for immortality...at least Gul'dan's motives mean something, they will change the world we know for one reason or another (In the Legion's case to purge evil and corruption from the universe) Where as what would her immortality do? How would it affect anyone but herself? How would it change the world in any real way other than some greedy murderous undead elf would truly live forever...

I don't know... the Forsaken? in the end, the main point on getting the Valkyr is to be able to create more Forsaken.

- - - Updated - - -

To be fair, that is technically not true. It's true that Gilneas didn't help the refugee, but they never harmed them either (at least none that we know of). I can see that the Forsaken might have grudges against Gilneas, but Gilneas wasn't the one who harmed them.

I guess you are right (Maybe without counting the time they closed the doors and all Gilneans that were for some reason outside died at their doorsteeps)

- - - Updated - - -

So you say that Gilneas alone would have been able to stop the Scourge?

And I'm pretty sure most of the Forsaken until Cataclysm simply died by eating some bad stuff. That was how the Scourge annihilated Lordaeron in the first place, with the plague of undead.

I agree with you, the Forsaken (some) may hate the Gilneans (or to be more precise, the crown) for abandoning them to the scourge, but still... Gilneas couldn't do much about the Plague alone.

- - - Updated - - -

And? It could also be argued that the legion itself isn't evil, since their goal through the eradication of all life in the universe, is to stop the void from consuming it. The fact is in universe Sylvanas's actions are not seen as favorable, neither are they from our perspective. She is evil, but what is so bad about it?

She isn't written as a kind and understanding person, but rather utterly ruthless, arrogant and scheming.

Most of the Legion is Evil (The demons are evil per se, they listen to Sargeras cause they can't do anything against him, and in the end, they wish to create chaos, and Sargeras is giving them what they want), but you could say that Sargeras is not evil (or may be seen as not evil)

- - - Updated - - -

do you hate genn and the gilneans? i'm just qurious because i start to like him more than varian. he looked so awesome and cool in the newest cinematic i wish the alliance had more like him. at least he is not boring. it seems blizzard focusing a lot around him and although anduin is the king, genn is the frontline character for the alliance the one who represent it. gilnean forces everywhere in the broken isles. genn shows up and talk in you in every pvp area. gilnean rename and troops in dalaran alliance side. new gilnean vicious mount from pvp. blizzard want to tell us something but im not sure what.

He's actually more liked that some people realize in the forums, but he just have done a lot of shit in the past too (He was an asshole but it seems that time -and a couple of war, mutation and the dead of his kid- have changed him :P )

- - - Updated - - -

i agree actually. but that is one of the good things about greymane. he is not perfect and has small or big flaws. at least that is not make him a boring character. personally i believe he suffered way too much and he still continues to suffer for sure so it is safe to say that he paid for his past sins.

That can be easily debated...

[Combatbutler]

Most of the Legion is Evil (The demons are evil per se, they listen to Sargeras cause they can't do anything against him, and in the end, they wish to create chaos, and Sargeras is giving them what they want), but you could say that Sargeras is not evil (or may be seen as not evil)

Sargeras is evil, he intends to save all of creation, or better the next generation so to speak, by purging the current one. He had plenty of other options but he didn't consider them and instead of simply fighting the void with a united universe at his back he chose to fight the universe and the void.

If he had absolutely no other choice then the argument could have been made, but he had alternatives.

[Maxilian]

Sargeras is evil, he intends to save all of creation, or better the next generation so to speak, by purging the current one. He had plenty of other options but he didn't consider them and instead of simply fighting the void with a united universe at his back he chose to fight the universe and the void.

If he had absolutely no other choice then the argument could have been made, but he had alternatives.

Are you assuming that a Titan cannot be Lawful Stupid!?

Note: He had alternatives (I like to think that he basically went insane out of:
a)Solitude
b)Demons influence
c)Fel corruption
d)Knowing the Truth

Note2: You're right, but for him, he's not evil (Something that's not the same with the rest of the Burning Legion)

[RedNight at MMOC]

Considering the scale of extermination I'd say yes.

Once again, that is a narrow view of a subjective topic.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Halls of Reflection:

"Men, women, and children. NONE WERE SPARED the Master's wrath. Your deaths will be no different." ~Marwyn

Hands down, one of the greatest quotes ever. And a really cool moment in Cataclysm. Falric and Marwyn are the two soldiers that followed Arthas in to kill his father.

Yea I butchered the spelling of their names oops. but yea alot of the orginial forsaken had violent deaths at the hands of the scourge, it def wasn't due to eating bread.

[Aquamonkey]

Sargeras is evil according to the lore books.

Sargeras now believed that the titans' mission of creation was hopelessly flawed. He became devoted entirely to evil, and created the Burning Legion, an army dedicated to the destruction of all creation.
--Ultimate Visual Guide

Once as close as brothers, Velen lost Kil'jaeden to Sargeras' evil.
--Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded

Knowing that the Highborne's seals would nullify whatever evil still lingered in Sargeras's avater, she buried the demon lord's broken body within the sunken portion of Suramar.
--Chronicle

[Zulkhan]

Considering the stakes he had in Lordaeron during the second war trying to advance his kingdoms power and standing, I'd still say he was driven by ambition and to a degree by greed. Sure he cared for his people, but he wanted power for his kingdom and lots of it, but once he realized he couldn't get it, he literally walled himself and his kingdom in.

I see what you mean and you're sort of right, what I tried to point out is that all Genn did was never truly about himself but always about Gilneas. As I said, he wanted Gilneas to be a power in its own right and was ready to do plenty of messed up shit in order to achieve such goal. He wanted to strengthen his kingdom in order to never need the help of "allies" and, consequently, never give "allies" the right to ask anything to them.

Ultimately what Greymane always cared about was his kingdom, whenever it meant granting safety, power or prosperity to it, while caring very little about anyone else.

Are you assuming that a Titan cannot be Lawful Stupid!?

Well, planning to exterminate the whole universe is the least "Lawful Stupid" thing you can think at. If anything, his actions firmly label him "Lawful Evil".

Note: He had alternatives (I like to think that he basically went insane out of:
a)Solitude
b)Demons influence
c)Fel corruption
d)Knowing the Truth

Note2: You're right, but for him, he's not evil (Something that's not the same with the rest of the Burning Legion)

Problem is that Sargeras is not truly insane, the Dark Titan manipulates, schemes and take advantage of people's weaknesses to achieve his goal.

After he got struck by the fel energies of Mardum he turned into a pure malignant creature, which marks him definitely evil.

Once again, that is a narrow view of a subjective topic.

What? Accepting that mass extermination on universal scale is pretty much evil?

I care not if someone believes he's doing the right thing, his entitlement ain't going to change the outlook of his actions.

[Life-Binder]

Fel-Sargeras right now is definitely evil

Void Lords might be an even bigger badder all-consuming evil, but that doesnt not make him one ..


the only thing you can debate is how much of that evil is his own and how much was Fel-bath induced

[Combatbutler]

Fel-Sargeras right now is definitely evil

Void Lords might be an even bigger badder all-consuming evil, but that doesnt not make him one ..


the only thing you can debate is how much of that evil is his own and how much was Fel-bath induced

He decided to purge the universe, before he was tainted by fel. After all he released the demons to be his army and got exposed in the process.

[Zulkhan]

He decided to purge the universe, before he was tainted by fel.

Yeah, but before that he was little more than a desperate Titan on the brink of losing his sanity. After he turned fully demonic he pretty much became no better than than any other demon of the Legion, except holding way more power and having a clearer goal in mind (which was about utter destruction anyway, the thing demons desire to spread without much thought).

[RedNight at MMOC]

I care not if someone believes he's doing the right thing, his entitlement ain't going to change the outlook of his actions.

That is exactly what the idea of evil is, a BELIEF. It is not a fact, but rather a concept derived from mankind's necessity to try and categorize everything when not everything can be defined in such a simplistic and easy way.

[Kallisto]

To be fair, that is technically not true. It's true that Gilneas didn't help the refugee, but they never harmed them either (at least none that we know of). I can see that the Forsaken might have grudges against Gilneas, but Gilneas wasn't the one who harmed them.

I think "Oh you're going to die but if we open the door we can save you.... Well tough shit go die and rot for all i care you scum." to Lordaeron refugees is pretty much condemning them to death. Which yes is harming them.

He could have easily opened the gates, allowed them in and closed them before Arthas and his armies arrived. Since Gilneas was out of the way (Since Dalaran is opposite direction). Then afterwards it would have taken time for him to break the wall. Long enough for Illidan to have done his thing and cause part of the scourge to rebel. Yeah if I were forsaken I'd think Genn is a Dick that deserves the biggest torture before death.

[Maxilian]

That is exactly what the idea of evil is, a BELIEF. It is not a fact, but rather a concept derived from mankind's necessity to try and categorize everything when not everything can be defined in such a simplistic and easy way.

This.

An action can be seen as Evil, that doesn't make the person who do it, Evil, even if others see that person as Evil, same apply to Good, not everyone who do Good, its Good, and IMHO guys... if you want to talk about what its Evil and Good (Alignment), what makes a person Evil or Good, its not what they do, its under what mentality they do it -why-.

[Kithelle]

I don't know... the Forsaken? in the end, the main point on getting the Valkyr is to be able to create more Forsaken.

Yeah...maybe a small part of her is doing it for the Forsaken, but a large part of her is doing it for immortality and to avoid that special little piece of hell that is waiting for her in the underwold...at the cost of Val'kyr's lives.

Not to mention the small fact that a lot of people don't want to be raised as undead...especially to be Forsaken...but does she care? No...

[Friendlyimmolation]

Not to mention the small fact that a lot of people don't want to be raised as undead...especially to be Forsaken...but does she care? No...

Then they can always go back to the afterlife. No one forces you to stay Forsaken. If they don't want to be raised, don't be attacking the Forsaken

[Qualia]

Then they can always go back to the afterlife. No one forces you to stay Forsaken. If they don't want to be raised, don't be attacking the Forsaken

That isn't really a fair choice, though. I don't think there are many people who enjoy dying (a second time even). To make it worse, Sylvanas / the Forsaken don't even limit their targets to just people who attacked the Forsaken.

[Deleted]

Who cares, at least she's got a spine, can't be said for all the other racial leaders on both sides.

[Friendlyimmolation]

That isn't really a fair choice, though. I don't think there are many people who enjoy dying (a second time even). To make it worse, Sylvanas / the Forsaken don't even limit their targets to just people who attacked the Forsaken.

True, she does raise the graves of Lordaeron, every other conflict they have been in has been the result of combat with the Forsaken.

[Mehrunes]

I kinda doubt this scenario. If Sylvanas get her hand on Eyir again, there would be no choice, just enslavement. For Eyir to be able to force Sylvanas to choose, she need to be at higher position in the pact.

In a quest in Azsuna you retrieve a journal from one of the ships whose crew was aware of Sylvanas' plans about the Val'kyr and it mentions her wanting to steal their power. It could be meant metaphorically, but I think it does give some credibility to the option that she wanted to strip Eyir of her power as was mentioned at the start of the other thread on the topic.