I just can't get behind fel rushing on rotation :(

[Nighelf]

The problem with Havoc is more that variety in playstyle exists but the current tuning locks out all the options except a single preset path.

There's no need to actually change the design of Havoc, but tuning some knobs to allow some more variety hurts no one and benefits everyone. Example.

1. Nerf Fel Rush. Takes it out of the baseline ST rotation inherently and makes it more of an AoE and repositioning tool.
2. Buff Fel Mastery. Now those who want to do the dash and slash playstyle can pick up the super Fel Rush and continue on, unchanged.
3. Buff the "dead" talents. Give Blind Fury, Demonic, and Demonic Appetite a little nudge up. Not to push Eye Beam to being directly competitive but open the build up to being at least closer in performance, whereas Fel Rush build handily crushes the entire build in all types of encounters. At the very least, an Eye Beam centric build should be great at raw AoE. It's not.
4. Nerf Bloodlet. The synergy it has with Master of the Glaive and the Momentum playstyle push it up way too high and has it near single handedly propping up AoE/cleave on its own and eliminating Felblade and First Blood from contention on all types of encounters, even though those talents better fit the hyper mobility playstyle but no one is arguing to get buffed oddly enough.
5. Buff Blade Dance since it feels like shit to use and compensates some of the AoE loss from a Bloodlet nerf but spreads it across the spec.

Nothing in those 5 points, if done together, would hurt anyone while allowing us to take advantage of additional options in our talents that are intended to be actual choices. It's all tuning knobs. Momentum could stay on top along with Fel Mastery and Vengeful Retreat, but options would be present for the encounters where that style doesn't work or if people wanted to take a slight DPS loss.

Your post makes too much sense, is exactly what DH needs and will probably get in pre-raid patch. But the "fel rush or gtfo" crowd here will ignore it, since they cant argue against decent logic. To be honest , i like felrush , i dont like Vr as rotational, i hate pasionately the stupid bloodlet talent ( blade dance is so much cooler and fun to use but suck in dps compared to others). We should be able to build an eye beam spec, we should be able to build a blade dance spec..1 ability does not define a class.

[americandavey]

this is the thread. end it please mods. its bogus complaints about a core feature for a spec.

people cant wrap their head around the fact fel rush is and will always be a rotational ability.

This is Blizzard that will change things on a whim and with extreme Prejudice. They even said, it will all be looked at after Launch of Legion to see what the data says. So this , "Fel Rush IS and WILL ALWAYS BE a rotational ability" is NOT FACT. Sad that people on this sub-forum have so much hatred for those that do not want to using an ability that DOES NOT work like it should every time. Either go further then you should or dont go anywhere at all.

[Beace]

this is the thread. end it please mods. its bogus complaints about a core feature for a spec.

people cant wrap their head around the fact fel rush is and will always be a rotational ability.

Why do you people keep talking like you know Blizzard's exact intentions? It's pretty damn obvious if you look at the talent trees that they do want to give you options. They just failed a bit with the tuning in this initial Legion patch.

If they did want to force every single Havoc DH to use FR as it's currently used, they could have simply built in Fel Mastery into FR, and added another talent to replace it in the first row. That would have been more in line with how they want the talent trees to work.

[Not Againnn]

Why do you people keep talking like you know Blizzard's exact intentions? It's pretty damn obvious if you look at the talent trees that they do want to give you options. They just failed a bit with the tuning in this initial Legion patch.

If they did want to force every single Havoc DH to use FR as it's currently used, they could have simply built in Fel Mastery into FR, and added another talent to replace it in the first row. That would have been more in line with how they want the talent trees to work.

go play sub rogue if you dont want to fel rush.

[Schizoide]

"It is because it is" isn't really an argument. I don't know why some people are incapable of discussion.

Hah, welcome to the internet. Some people are just contrary. Happens a lot on videogame forums in particular, kids.

Anyway, all we can do is continue to offer our feedback. And warn other players not to main Havoc unless they enjoy that rotational repositioning.

[Shiino]

If you dont want to fel rush just roll rogue.

[Multistryke]

Just dont spec for it. I hate using mobility for dmg so Im going for nemesis. Its only a minor dps lost and not on all fight.

This is exactly what I did, and It plays great.

I prefer to use VR/FR for getting away from boss mechanics / swapping targets.

[mitre27]

this is the thread. end it please mods. its bogus complaints about a core feature for a spec.

people cant wrap their head around the fact fel rush is and will always be a rotational ability.

Why is it a core feature though? There are talents in place for the fel rush playstyle, why is it forced even without picking those talents? There's no good argument not to give more spec choice to the class with only 1 dps spec.

If you dont want to fel rush just roll rogue.

Why not a warrior? Their resource system is closer to DH than rogue, or are just being an idiot and saying rogue because of them both wearing leather?

[Beace]

go play sub rogue if you dont want to fel rush.

I dunno why I bothered replying to your post. I should have known by your previous posts in this thread you'd have no real reply. Lesson learned.

[Saphyron]

Like what you play...and play it well and you'll exceed 80% of the people that play something they don't like but is supposed to be OP.

This so many people simply don't understand this.

A good player using sub-optimal talents will most of the times outdps a sub-par dps using op talents.

[Deix-EU]

This so many people simply don't understand this.

A good player using sub-optimal talents will most of the times outdps a sub-par dps using op talents.

But a good DH player will rekt other DH with bad spec, that's the point. I even saw some with Fel Eruption ...

[Schizoide]

This is exactly what I did, and It plays great.

I prefer to use VR/FR for getting away from boss mechanics / swapping targets.

If you do this, you're sacrificing up to 20% of your total performance. If you can deal with that, cool. Just make the decision with your eyes open.

[kaelleria]

If you do this, you're sacrificing up to 20% of your total performance. If you can deal with that, cool. Just make the decision with your eyes open.

That's what offensive blur is for!

But in all seriousness... I'm ok with another playstyle for DH, it just can't be within 10%~ of the momentum build because once that happens, people will stop using momentum/FR altogether in favor of the safer, easier spec.

[Hexxidecimal]

This is exactly what I did, and It plays great.

I prefer to use VR/FR for getting away from boss mechanics / swapping targets.

Even if you don't spec for Fel Rush you are getting a massive DPS loss for not using it. This is essentially the issue people are having. It is a straight up DPS loss whether you spec for it or don't if you don't use it, even on single targets.

- - - Updated - - -

If you dont want to fel rush just roll rogue.

Or you could do like I do. I love fel rush and play momo with great delight. I also realize Blizzard have built in other talents that don't focus on Fel Rush but are just being left at the wayside because Fel Rushing is mandatory regardless. I realize that this is bad design, because now we are pushed into a single talent build. I realize this is bad design and support the retunning of Fel Rush and other abilities. Ya know cause Demon Hunters just came out, it's not hard to believe there is still some tunning in the works and that Blizz wants feed back.

It's amusing to me how so many people here are so fucking certain of what is core to DHs when they haven't even been out a full three weeks yet.

[Thelxi]

this is the thread. end it please mods. its bogus complaints about a core feature for a spec.

people cant wrap their head around the fact fel rush is and will always be a rotational ability.

What authority do you have to declare fel rush on single target an inescapable core feature of the spec? One glance at the talents and you will immediately see that this was clearly not intended and something went wrong somewhere. Don't get me wrong, Blizzard could still intend fel rush on single target to be a small dps increase over no fel rush on single target, but there is no way they intended it to be such a big difference.

Blizzard has not commented on this yet, so lets be a bit more conservative with our declarations of what is till we know exactly what Blizzard intends us to be doing.

[kaelleria]

What authority do you have to declare fel rush on single target an inescapable core feature of the spec? One glance at the talents and you will immediately see that this was clearly not intended and something went wrong somewhere. Don't get me wrong, Blizzard could still intend fel rush on single target to be a small dps increase over no fel rush on single target, but there is no way they intended it to be such a big difference.

Blizzard has not commented on this yet, so lets be a bit more conservative with our declarations of what is till we know exactly what Blizzard intends us to be doing.

Generally any ability listed in the spec summary is designed to be a core ability... If it wasn't designed to be used rotationally, it wouldn't have a 10 second recharge. It'd have a 30 second+ recharge.
I can also totally see uses for the other talents as well in pvp scenarios. Just because an ability isn't great in PVE doesn't mean its completely useless.

[Schizoide]

Blizzard could still intend fel rush on single target to be a small dps increase over no fel rush on single target, but there is no way they intended it to be such a big difference.

I think you're probably right. Fel Mastery is such a large increase it implies the ability shouldn't be solely used for it damage without the talent. But its baseline was left way too high, so it was, and the talent became essentially mandatory. Just an educated guess.

Anyway, even if mandatory rotational repositioning wasn't what they originally intended, and even if it renders tons of talents essentially garbage because they don't fit the playstyle, that does not mean they're going to fix it. It is extremely common for stuff like this to last an entire expansion, only to be fixed in the next one.

[Hexxidecimal]

Generally any ability listed in the spec summary is designed to be a core ability...
I can also totally see uses for the other talents as well in pvp scenarios. Just because an ability isn't great in PVE doesn't mean its completely useless.

You are correct partially. Nemesis for example is the Arena king talent. That being said, I will have to disagree. PvP players have an entirely separate Talent set they can use to further define what they are doing. There is no good reason why Blizzard shouldn't close the gap on the Fel Rush Momo build and non Fel Rush build.

[Schizoide]

Yep. PvP talents should be in the PvP talent panel, that's what it's for.

Nemesis isn't really a PvP-only talent, though. It has PvE applications, it's just a bit weak and less flexible than Momentum.

Havoc does have some talents exclusively used in PvP, though. First Blood comes to mind. Nobody should EVER take it in PvE.

[Hexxidecimal]

I think you're probably right, largely because Fel Mastery is such a large increase. But even if it wasn't what they originally intended, and even if it renders tons of talents essentially garbage because they don't fit the rotationally repositioning playstyle, that does not mean they're going to fix it. It is extremely common for stuff like this to last an entire expansion, only to be fixed in the next one.

This is the unfortunate truth. Although I have some hope. DKs got some rotational changes within Wrath. Maybe we will too. Though I doubt it's going to be soon, rather it's likely to be Soon™