Genn Greymane is a war criminal

[Ripitgood]

Wow.. well with that train of thought, it was all the Humans fault this ever happened. If they never trusted Medivh, he would have never brought the Orcs and the Burning Legion here in the first place.

G-fin-G Humans for ruining everything.

I think you're poor example should be more directed properly.
The Elves existed first.
The Elves taught humans magic during the Arthai Wars between Humans/Elves/Trolls of Zul'aman and other northern groups.

Before this the "Guardian of Tristfal" never existed.
We where only able to make it exist after the Elves taught us magic. Leading to our creation of the Kirin Tor and Guardian for protection.
So really it's the Elves.

Or, Wait we should go further. The planet is a Titan Soul. It was cleansed and shaped by other Titans who decided on which races to allow to populate Azeroth.
As well as were aware of the Well of Eternity. Or the likely hood of it's creation, Leading to Elves grasping far more Magic arts or entirely because of it.

So really it's the Titans fault.

Or MAYBE, the fault lays with in the person WHO MADE THE DECISIONS!

Also, it should be said. Medivh was never just a NORMAL Mage/Guardian. He was Sargeras from the MOMENT he was conceived by Agwynn and his Father.

It's not like we trusted someone and they betrayed us.
We were betrayed from the very first moment, there was NOTHING anyone could do.
And Sargeras in controlling Medivh likely did not need the Guardians power to do what Medivh did.
The issue was Sargeras not Medivh, his mom, the Guardians, Kirin Tor. Or whatever. The root is the issue.

Vol'Jin was wounded, Sylvannas made the call she had to made. But that call is EXACTLY what lead to Varians death. Now, Had they stayed could his death have been stopped? Who knows, I'd say probably not considering who he is in the lore and how he acts.
That close to the portal they would have been overwhelmed I think eventually no matter what, even if Vol'Jin had not been wounded. And Varian would have sacrificed himself for everyone. Because that's Lo'Gosh.

[Thelin]

The guy started an entire faction war over the Horde retreating due to their Warchief getting fatally wounded and many of their other heroes getting near lethal wounds, [Thrall, Baine, etc]. Hes blaming Varian's death on the HORDE?! Are you serious? Last time I checked GUL'DAN killed Varian. Secondly, how the hell did you know Sylvanas called the retreat?! "I knew it, I knew we couldn't trust her!". It was just a horn blowing. You're blaming something on someone over the death of your who also died on PURPOSE. Sylvanas did not intend to kill him, she wanted to kill YOU. Your idiot son got what he deserved.

Also you start a faction war in the beginning of the biggest legion invasion ever?! You're a fucking idiot Genn Greymane. Please don't even bother making him a raid boss, give him the most pathetic death you can give him.

You do realize the whole storyline is built around the fact that the alliance has NO KNOWLEDGE of WHY they retreated. We as the players obviously do. Herp Derp.

[derpkitteh]

Hitler existing prevents trust, that backstabbing scumbag (c.f. him invading Russia DURING WW2 lol). Loads of German high-ups wanted him dead. So, no, still a bad example.

you let your enemy sort that out for their selves. whether or not what they want matches up with what you want, doesn't matter. it's still an attack on their faction.

doing the right thing for the wrong reason = bad thing.

[Nekosom]

It boggles my mind that there's still Sylvanas apologists out there. How much time does one character have to illustrate "Hey everyone, I'm evil!" before you get the hint?

Hell, I'd be damned nervous if I was a Hordie. She's shown time and time again that she doesn't give two shits about other members of the Horde. At this point, I'd be concerned she'd sell us all out to the Legion to safeguard the Forsaken's future. Even Garrosh was more subtle about his desire to see other races dead than Sylvanas has been.

But yeah, totally a good guy.

[Cirayne24]

-snip-

My example was meant to be poor. If Horde was really Victory of Death, the Horde would have been wiped out the first lost they had in history which was WC1 or WC2 (definitely WC2 since Orcs were placed in camps leading to the Gilineas' departure of Alliance).

And considering the horn was blown after all the Horde leaders were dying or defeated (minus her), I doubt staying a few extra minutes would have saved anyone. The campaign was doomed from the start. The whole point is that the Burning Legion played us both and if Genn wasn't a hot head he'd realize that. Like I said earlier, I wouldn't turst Sylvanus either, but I wouldn't blow up an entire Horde fleet. Stop her if you want at the Valkyries, but don't destroy an army.

[Deleted]

Meh, perspective I guess. As a Hordy I agree with Sylvanas in not sacrificing half our faction leaders fora lost cause. You hating Sylvanas with a passion and filling in blanks doesn't chance the fact that from her perspective that was the right choice (no matter her agenda). It's your given right though, but if we are making up stuff I'm sticking with Khadgar being a dreadlord and fucking things up for everyone.

Right choice or not it was an act of cowardice and she left the Alliance hanging.

She has to live with that choice and what it led to. And one thing it led to was Genn thwarting her plans.

The moral of the story is, eventually all your deeds will come back to haunt you.

But some people don't see that.

[Zulkhan]

And that can be interpreted differently.

Horseshit. The proof that Sylvanas got it right is the way Vol'jin regarded her in Grommash Hold.

Bullshit. Just because Vol'jin died doesn't mean the Horde would've been completely destroyed.

Yeah, the Warchief half dead and 3/4 of the Horde's leadership eating dust, against a swarm of demons acknwoledged to simply be too numerous to deal with. Give ma a break for god's sake.

The Alliance had to face more powerful demons.

And the Horde had to face far greater numbers (a portal endlessly spawning demons right before them) Fel Ships shooting hell on them and named demons too. The Alliance had Horde support to deal with their own shit (Sylvanas' rangers clearing the skies) while the Horde was alone in its mess.

If she wanted to save the Horde she should've killed herself. She's the biggest threat the Horde has to face right now, next to the Legion of course.

Skippable nonsense, I guess.

It wasn't an order. An order is "RETREAT OUR FORCES NOW". What he did was beg her to save the Horde.

Epic moving of goalposts here. It doesn't change the fact that Sylvanas was told to save the Horde and she did.

And it was definitely an order. Vol'jin didn't ask it nicely or said "please", he said what she had to do, which was quite his right as Warchief.

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Right choice or not it was an act of cowardice and she left the Alliance hanging.

Then the Alliance are cowards too for leaving the moment they had no chances. Because they did just that.

[Avar ize]

Or maybe Genn is the only smart man left in the Alliance and have realized there is no teaming up with the horde, since they back stab, betray and piss on the alliance at every opportunity they get, Varian being the one stupid enough to never fucking learn to not trust them, wanting to team up with them again and again, and in the end it got him blown into fairy dust.
Hell as a Horde player i can see why the alliance would not want to be allied to us, we are assholes lol

[Deleted]

Then the Alliance are cowards too for leaving the moment they had no chances. Because they did just that.

The Alliance left because the Horde left first. They had no responsibility to anyone but themselves at that point.

Also Varian was the one that ordered the retreat, and I don't think you can call him a coward for being the only one staying there and sacrificing his life to make sure his people survive.

Call me when Sylvanas does that.

See that's the difference. Varian would sacrifice his own life for his people. Sylvanas would sacrifice her people for her own life. That is the Cult of the Forsaken. For the Dark Lady.

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Or maybe Genn is the only smart man left in the Alliance and have realized there is no teaming up with the horde, since they back stab, betray and piss on the alliance at every opportunity they get, Varian being the one stupid enough to never fucking learn to not trust them, wanting to team up with them again and again, and in the end it got him blown into fairy dust.
Hell as a Horde player i can see why the alliance would not want to be allied to us, we are assholes lol

When did Sylvanas betray the Alliance in Legion? Having 85% of your troops & most powerful heroes having their asses kicked and also having the Warchief get fatally is the perfect time to raise the white flag and gtfo of there. I'm pretty sure if Varian got fatally wounded, the first thing Jaina would've done was teleported everyone to the gunship and retreated and left the entire Horde. This isn't an act of betrayal, its logical thinking.

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It boggles my mind that there's still Sylvanas apologists out there. How much time does one character have to illustrate "Hey everyone, I'm evil!" before you get the hint?

Hell, I'd be damned nervous if I was a Hordie. She's shown time and time again that she doesn't give two shits about other members of the Horde. At this point, I'd be concerned she'd sell us all out to the Legion to safeguard the Forsaken's future. Even Garrosh was more subtle about his desire to see other races dead than Sylvanas has been.

But yeah, totally a good guy.

Sylvanas saved everyone at the broken shore. she cares about the horde.

[Combatbutler]

Lawful good characters are just not cool anymore.

Genn Greymane is lawful evil. Considering all he did over the years.

[Deleted]

Everyone who hasn't joined glorious overlord Bolvar is a warcriminal.
Prove me wrong.
You can't.

Ebon blade isn't puppets.

[Deleted]

Genn Greymane is lawful evil. Considering all he did over the years.

Name one evil thing Genn did.

[Combatbutler]

Name one evil thing Genn did.

Trying to take over lordaeron during the second war, unleashing the worgen and as a consequence cursing his people, causing gilneas fall, denying lordaeron help during the third war, abandoning Crowleys territories, cutting all ties to the outside world, which then led to a civil war.

Almost every major problems the Gilneans face today is a result of Genn.

[Cirayne24]

Genn Greymane is lawful evil. Considering all he did over the years.

He's more Lawful/Chaotic Neutral. He's not evil... but Genn isn't Lawful Good either, otherwise he'd obey his King's command to the dot.

Sylvanus is Chaotic Neutral right now. She marches to her own beat and doesn't want to be confined by laws. Not outright evil, but she doesn't care if you get in her way.

Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil characters are boring. Grey area characters are the best, as it allows for moral dilemmas and character growth.

[Zulkhan]

The Alliance left because the Horde left first. They had no responsibility to anyone but themselves at that point.

"Without the Horde we'll be overrun, we must retreat"

That's why the Alliance left.

Thing is, the Horde was already overrun and that's why they had to retreat.

Also Varian was the one that ordered the retreat, and I don't think you can call him a coward for being the only one staying there and sacrificing his life to make sure his people survive.

Call me when Sylvanas does that.

See that's the difference. Varian would sacrifice his own life for his people. Sylvanas would sacrifice her people for her own life. That is the Cult of the Forsaken. For the Dark Lady.

I'm not even sure what you're arguing about, it just sounds like you have a thing against Sylvanas and want to share your feelings about her. Personally I don't care, I'm not a fan of Sylvanas, but your line of reasoning doesn't definitely look steady.

But about the argument in question, it's not fair to judge how much Varian or Sylvanas are supposed to sacrifice and care when their situations were different. Varian sacrificed himself because he had to, otherwise the retreat would have failed. Sylvanas had no rational need to do the same, regardless of all the personal guess working whether Sylvanas would have done that or not. She led the retreat successfully and saved Horde lives. That's already quite a lot for the expectations people have of this character. I don't surely have to pretend from her to do some unneeded (key word) heroic sacrifice to prove who knows what.

[Deianeira]

"Hes blaming Varian's death on the HORDE?! Are you serious? "

Watch the alliance video for Broken Shore. Now, pretend you didn't have any knowledge of why the Horde retreated (since Genn doesn't have that knowledge). What do you see - the Horde turning and walking away (not running, not under attack... we don't see any of that in the Alliance video). So of course it looks like the Horde betrayed the Alliance again. That's WHY that video showed that perspective.

When evaluating fiction you always have to remember what the characters know and what they've seen. Not what you, the reader (or player in this case) know.

I agree that you should look at it from that perspective, BUT you also have to understand that If any sane minded character had got their asses handed to them as we did would your first thought be to start a conflict with the ones needed to defend the friggin planet from Annihilation?

[TheramoreIsTheBomb]

Trying to take over lordaeron during the second war, unleashing the worgen and as a consequence cursing his people, causing gilneas fall, denying lordaeron help during the third war, abandoning Crowleys territories, cutting all ties to the outside world, which then led to a civil war.

Almost every major problems the Gilneans face today is a result of Genn.

Also he restarted the Horde vs Alliance War which is essentially aiding the Burning Legion.

[Jewsco]

Is this serious? Saying what grenn did makes him a war criminal when the new horde warchief has used chemical warfare to destroy whole zones? When the last warchief blew up a whole city? This makes this guy a war criminal?
By the way he was right anyway as the current warchief was up to her no good tactics and was working with a legion sympathizer to get access to something to make her immortal.
But he is war criminal?
Come on

[Dominus89]

Theres no irony because Sylvanas or anyone in the Horde did not start this faction war bs again. Sylvanas only went to Stormheim to find out about the Val'kyr and the Aegis.

Sylvanas tried to enslave Eyir, the Queen of the Val'kyr to become immortal. Genn comes and smashes the aegis and saves Eyir and Genn is the war criminal?