What if Sylvanas sent the Horde after Greymane as revenge?

[Threndsa]

As far as Stormheim goes they were BOTH wrong and could have lost the pillar if we hadn't been off doing our own adventure-y thing.

Genn can tell Anduin that Sylvanas was trying to bind Eyir. Both causing unfriendly relations (she is NOT happy to see you during the dungeon) with a neutral or potentially allied faction and potentially making Sylvanas and the forsaken fundamentally immortal if she can control the creation of Val'kyr. Anduin might not be happy with Genn but he also wouldn't want to see another creature enslaved and Genn prevented that.

Sylvanas is the warchief and ultimately doesn't have to answer to anyone, however there is enough distrust that she probably doesn't want any of the other leaders questioning why she went off using horde resources on a personal mission BEFORE the pillar was secure.

[Mehrunes]

She agreed to help them kill Arthas while declaring she would do so her own way, but she still took an interest in being involved with their plans if only to get revenge.

Uhm, no. Varimathras reached out to her only after Arthas fled to congratulate her on overthrowing him and invited her to join them in their new order. She told them she was only interested in revenge against Arthas and not their politics and Varimathras threatening her. She went after Varimathras in the same mission.

Shes a keeper, whom are basically Titan watchers, who are basically titans in turn.

Shes also daughter of Odyn, who -is- a keeper, logic.

Titan Keepers aren't Titans. They are Titan constructs. So no logic.

She basically threw her troops at Skold-Ashil in an effort to conquer it, and got pissed off when they failed. She also threw her troops wastefully at Stromgarde in an effort to conquer it during Cataclysm and The Hinterlands, both, went badly for her. She makes pretty much every undead swear loyalty to the dark lady upon creation and insists they are greatful for being given a second life. She claims to care about them and their free will but honestly only wants them to serve her.

So Forsaken not winning every fight is Sylvanas throwing her soldiers to die? Wat? As for Stromgarde, that campaign was successful so I'm not sure what you're talking about. And yes, she was dissatisfied with the Dark Rangers not being able to secure the location. So what? Did any of them die? Did Sylvanas say they should have died trying? No, she said she'd try herself instead. Look at all that disregard for their forces. And she makes the new undead swear shit. New undead can go their own merry way like Voss and Rotbrain did, as long as they don't attack the Forsaken.

Garrosh actually promoted, respected and listened to many of his Orc companions and often would do what he could to help them personally in the field. He was -not- afraid to get his own hands dirty at first, only after letting the Dark Horde and the likes of Malkorok in did things start to go sour.

Sylvanas wasn't afraid to get her own hands dirty in your very example but that doesn't count because I don't even know why. And Garrosh listened to no one. Which is why even the majority of Orcs turned against him.

What Odyn did to Helya was pretty much a dick move, but that doesnt excuse the monster she became.

Yeah, he only created that monster, but sure.

She used it as an excuse to use questionable means in conflict while everyone was pinning the hate on Garrosh. She blighted Andorhal beyond repair, she corrupted Hillsbrad to hell, she raised the fallen nephew of Danath trollbane in an effort to conquer Stromgarde and failed. She even captured Koltira simply because he allowed alliance soldiers and civilians to escape during the sacking of Andorhal because she wanted them turned into undead.

Wat? Seriously, wat? So many falsehoods here. Andorhal wasn't Blighted. Hillsbrad wasn't Sylvanas' doing and the warden of the place was executed on Lydon's orders when he acted under Sylvanas' authority. The Forsaken didn't fail at Stromgarde. Koltira didn't allow Alliance soldiers and civilians to escape. Koltira wasn't captured for allowing Alliance soldiers and civilians to escape (because that didn't happen). Sylvanas wasn't angry that she didn't raise as many undead as she could at Andorhal.

And none of that explains the lack of logic in your earlier post. There was an already ongoing war between the factions that the Alliance has started. Condemning Sylvanas for engaging in that war as she was obliged to do as a member of the Horde and try to paint it as her justifying war with the same war makes no sense.

Yeah shes a bit of a maniac using a convinent new conflict to experiment on her enemies with the same techniques as her former -re-animator Arthas and the scourge. Shes basically a war criminal.

The only experimentation that happened during the Cata/MoP war was in Hillsbrad and wasn't sanctioned by Sylvanas.

The undead claim a land that belongs to the living who have done -nothing- to attack them, yes that seems pretty evil.

The undead claim the land that belonged to the kingdom they conquered and created a successor state of. Pretty normal statehood occurrence. And way to ignore Hillsbrad being hostile since vanilla.

Andorhal was a rebuilding project, not an invasion, they wanted to recolonise a lost alliance territory and only had a military presence there to protect the workers trying to rebuild the lost land.

Andorhal is not lost Alliance territory. Alliances aren't entities that get land claims on the territory of their current members, let alone their former members. Lordaeron withdrew from the Alliance after Third War. And yes, out of all former Alliance land choosing the doorstep of Undercity during an ongoing war is completely innocent.

She also blighted most of Hillsbrad beyond recognition, and attempted to spread the blight into Alterac which she ultimatley got her ass handed to her for trying.

So? How is that a counterargument to them being forbidden from using it only in Gilneas? Especially since Southshore (which sure as hell isn't "most of Hillsbrad) could have very well happened prior to Gilneas. And she didn't attempt to spread the Blight into Alterac. The Forsaken also won in Alterac by literally nuking Stormpike positions.

Lor'themar himself outright declares he will kill Sylvanas if she tries, no, its not a good idea especially since it only creates a stronger control of power for the banshee queen and her own personal instabilities.

He outright declares he will kill her if she tries to raise Blood Elves. He also outright declares he gives zero shits if she resurrects humans moments later. Good job cherry-picking.

Its a skirmishing force, not the alliance entire military, most of it is a specific task fleet sent to get the Aegis as explained below.

It's a force sent by Anduin himself. That attacked the Forsaken fleet. It's as war action as you can get.

Uh, no, he tasks them with securing the Aegis and actually asks them to -avoid- a conflict, unfortunatley, he chose Genn and Rogers to -avoid- conflict, two extreme anti-horde individuals with a strong sense of faction patriotism and one specifically lost his son to the Horde's current warchief.

That's mighty weird because Rogers said her orders were this: " Officially, we are to track them from a safe distance. We may enagage, but only if an opportunity presents itself."

Maybe before he grew a pair, after the comic though, im sure Anduin is a healthy sceptic of people.

Which only makes the idea that he'll believe Genn's lies without any suspicion or checking things himself even less likely...

Sylvanas is not interested in her kingdom, shes interested in herself, her kingdom is a means to an end.

Yeah, that definitely defines Sylvanas when she was alive I suppose she planned a coup against Kael'thas or something.

- Lor'themar was on the verge of leaving for the Alliance during MoP if Jaina hadnt put him off by going cray.
- Baine is basically Anduin's bestie, im fairly sure hes not going to fight him.
- Saurfang pretty much -owes- Varian for letting him take his son away which is the canonical version of events aka: Alliance Icecrown, with no Varian, he basically owes Anduin.
- Gallywix is loyal to money, not the Horde.
- There is no Troll leader.
- Sylvanas isnt exactly in a stable position of power right now.

And they also owe Sylvanas their lives. And are bound to the Horde. Lor'themar was also on the verge of leaving because Garrosh reminded him of Garithos, I kinda don't see that happening with Sylvanas. Especially since Purge of Dalaran happened and he became rather salty about the Alliance afterwards. Previous Troll leader selected Sylvanas himself. Stormwind had money problem in Cata when they built a huge statue of Varian and just built another one. Baine engaged in previous war just fine, even against Theramore. And the debt for the grace of letting Saurfang bury his child is stretching things as hell.

Genn can tell Anduin that Sylvanas was trying to bind Eyir. Both causing unfriendly relations (she is NOT happy to see you during the dungeon) with a neutral or potentially allied faction and potentially making Sylvanas and the forsaken fundamentally immortal if she can control the creation of Val'kyr. Anduin might not be happy with Genn but he also wouldn't want to see another creature enslaved and Genn prevented that.

Eyir is as unhappy with the Alliance from what I recall. And technically. The story branches out at the end. You can decide if you want to finish the Aegis story first and then go to Skold-Ashil or vice versa, so it's hard to say which happened first canonically.

[Zulkhan]

Greymane's actions pretty much legitimated a similar course of action, but is not advisable. I don't even see "vengeance" being much of a great motivation for Sylvanas, times have changed and ensuring the survival of the Forsaken/herself is what really matters to her. Genn is the one with nothing to lose. Sylvanas has everything to lose. Moreover, you're hardly going to long last as Warchief if you lead the Horde following nothing but your own personal feelings. Garrosh is right there in Nagrand serving as reminder.

This said, I can't imagine Greymane lasting long if he keeps getting in the way. He would get a bounty on his head sooner or later, until some Horde assassin just don't take him out of the picture and brings his head on a silver plate to Sylvanas.

[Raetary]

That's mighty weird because Rogers said her orders were this: " Officially, we are to track them from a safe distance. We may enagage, but only if an opportunity presents itself."

actually, they changed it.

their priority is to search and find the aegis, the attack on the forsaken is unofficial.
they also changed rogers text from "but only if an opportunity presents itself." to "we may engage, but only if the situation demands"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACOJhoZmttY

genn and rogers literally attacked for no reason.

[Protean]

Pot calls the kettle black man.

Seriously Sylvanas is a power hungry maniac and has always -been- a power hungry maniac since Warcraft 3 TFT once she secured her freedom.

Go back as far as TFT and you'll realize she -used- the dreadlords to secure control over the undead, then, she made herself leader.

Adding insult to injury, she basically agreed to a deal with one of -the- worst titans Helya in exchange for her own immortality. It has -nothing- to do with her peoples future, it has-everything- to do with her own.

She commited suicide atop Icecrown after Arthas death, then was ressurected by the Val'kyr, she experienced true horrors in oblivion that terrified her, she resolved -never- to go back to that darkness.

She is not interested in the future of the undead, they are a means to an end, a meatshield to her as much as Garrosh. The only difference is, at least Garrosh respected the Orcs that followed him, Sylvanas has -no- qualms throwing her own men to die in the persuit of personal victory.

I had -hoped- she would be redeemed after Vol'jins death and rather moving speech, but she chose the path of faustian damnation. She made a deal with Helya, who granted, was a tragic villian in her own right, but is still a -villian- and so too is Sylvanas as it doesnt take a genious to realize what kind of deal she -made- with the titan of the underworld.

Be smart, and realize that your sanctified angel of darkness is nothing more than a devil in black feathers.


Shes -not- the good guy you think she is, shes as much a monster using a convinent war as an excuse to justify many murders and personal expansions. If you think shes so just then explain the following:

- Why did she attack the Kirin'tor in Silverpine and Hillsbrad unprovoked?
- Why did she doom the plaguelands after the Argent Dawn and Alliance tried to restore it?
- Why did she attempt to plague multiple parts of Azeroth despite being ordered not to?
- Why, did she intend to ressurect undead during the Siege of Orgrimmar?

At -what- point was Sylvanas -ever- good?

1) What is a titan?

2) Maybe she made a deal with Helya because they're the same. Both women forced into becoming monsters that lead an army of the damned.

[Verdugo]

Pot calls the kettle black man.

My god, can you actualy play the goddamn game before you try to argue on the lore forum?

[Raetary]

1) What is a titan?

a titan is a walking and living planets that brings order to the universe.

[MikeBogina]

All they will know is that Genn stopped Sylvanas' evil plot to enslave the allied Valkyries.

One evil plot to save the world... thwarted! Hope it was worth it Genn!

[Threndsa]

Eyir is as unhappy with the Alliance from what I recall. And technically. The story branches out at the end. You can decide if you want to finish the Aegis story first and then go to Skold-Ashil or vice versa, so it's hard to say which happened first canonically.

The text for both alliance and horde seems to be the same "I witnessed their deeds in Stormheim their kind has no true honor no true virtue" Considering, assuming the horde version of the trials is the same as the alliance, that we went through and did the trials the correct way pulled the shieldmaiden guarding her temple out of Helheim and resisted the God-king and his legion influence the ONLY thing I can correlate this to is the actions at her temple. I suppose she could have seen the fighting beforehand but battle is a fairly noble pursuit in these lands

Also while it's true that you can do the trials before the faction side story at the end in every other zone the dungeon is the end of the zones story. I feel like in cannon you go and do this once the quest is first offered to you between the 2nd and 3rd trials.

[My User Name]

Sylvanas took Genn's son and country.

Genn took Sylvanas' immortality.

It's called a fair deal.

[Raetary]

All they will know is that Genn stopped Sylvanas' evil plot to enslave the allied Valkyries.

genn and rogers got many good 7th legion soldiers killed and the last and best ship the alliance had destroyed for their own shit.
they were ordered not to attack unless the situation demands it, what did they do? started to shoot the moment they were above the forsaken ships.

and the val'kyr and other of odyns idiotic minions are not allied to anyone.
eyir is unhappy with everyone, and odyn cant leave the halls without being in his vrykul havi form.

i doubt anduin will be happy to hear about genns idiotic move.

[Verdugo]

The text for both alliance and horde seems to be the same "I witnessed their deeds in Stormheim their kind has no true honor no true virtue" Considering, assuming the horde version of the trials is the same as the alliance, that we went through and did the trials the correct way pulled the shieldmaiden guarding her temple out of Helheim and resisted the God-king and his legion influence the ONLY thing I can correlate this to is the actions at her temple. I suppose she could have seen the fighting beforehand but battle is a fairly noble pursuit in these lands

Or maybe, JUST MAYBE, she suffers from the same mental disease as Odyn. In that case, Sylvanas was completely justified in putting her useless ass to good use.

[Deleted]

Sylvanas took Genn's son and country.

Genn took Sylvanas' immortality.

It's called a fair deal.

And next Addon, Danath should take Stromgarde back.

[Verdugo]

And next Addon, Danath should take Stromgarde back.

Danath should lie down in his grave and die while he still has some dignity.

[Karrotlord]

And next Addon, Danath should take Stromgarde back.

Ok? No one currently holds it anyway.

[My User Name]

And next Addon, Danath should take Stromgarde back.

Eh I guess it works. Immortality for son, Stromgarde for country.

And retaking Gilneas shouldn't be a part of the deal since it already belonged to him.

[Solonar]

So is it a stretch to imagine Sylvanas going after Greymane as revenge?

Knowing Sylvanas, no. But it's unlikely that the Sin'dorei, Trolls, Orcs and Tauren will be going along with the idea. Goblins might if the pay is high enough.

So ugh hey guys I was making a deal with a minion of the old gods who is trying to kill us. I then tired to enslave the race of valkyr trying to help us. But then genn stopped me. Could you guys stop fighting the legion and help me kill him? Kthxby

Cute. Helya isn't an Old God minion, no more than Thorim, Hodir and the other Watchers of Ulduar were. She made a deal with a corrupted Loken, hardly makes her a minion of the Old Gods, at least not knowingly. A deal that was perfectly understandable given that Odyn was the asshat who turned her into a Val'kyr unwillingly. She tried to subjugate the 'mother' of Val'kyr, yeah... but I don't see how, aside from a mortal pov, this would bother the rest of the Horde. The Val'kyr from Stormheim are not our allies, they're not our friends.

Genn could have killed her, but sylvanas still might have a few Val'kyr ready to raise her from death (up her sleeve), so it would do no good. Genn instead got the better thing, and this delivered karma.

They both could've been able to kill one another. It looked like Genn held back and only dunked her a bit just to get that lantern, while she let him walk away wounded and in human form.

Sylvanas going after him now after the grief she's caused him, and him getting his revenge, is just petty now, and her being that petty will just erode any last sense of character strength she might have left.

Considering Genn isn't just destroying her future but that of her people as well I wouldn't call it petty. You may say Sylvanas doesn't have it out for her people but she does, she's proven that in her short-story where she doesn't regard to them as "arrows in a quiver" anymore, part the reason why she came back too.

With Genn, Sylvanas is still out there fucking shit up for him and hasn't tried to reconcile for attacking his home and killing his people and son. I think he needs to redirect his attention toward the legion, but it seems like his main beef is with Sylvanas and not the Horde as a whole.

An attack Garrosh started without Sylvanas being anywhere to be found initially. Killing his son who jumped into the way of Sylvanas' arrow to save his father. If anything, Liam Greymane's death is completely his own fault. Not Genn's, not Sylvanas, Liam's. Brave, sure and completely understandable that Genn feels the way he does but the kid got in the way. She did manage to get a ceasefire using Lorna as blackmail but not being willing to reconcile falls on both sides as a fault.

Seriously Sylvanas is a power hungry maniac and has always -been- a power hungry maniac since Warcraft 3 TFT once she secured her freedom.

Hardly. She's been working for revenge up until WotLK's end, revenge on Arthas.

Go back as far as TFT and you'll realize she -used- the dreadlords to secure control over the undead, then, she made herself leader.

Wrong. The Dreadlords invited her into "their new order" and she rejected them. Balnazzar, Detheroc and Varimathras were pissed and promised her their "response would come soon". She got on the offensive first, wrecked Varimathras and got his 'loyalty' and then used his knowledge of his brethren to wreck them, even ordering him to 'break Nathrezim law' in order to kill Balnazzar alongside Garithos' forces whom she temporarily allied herself with. Garithos ordered Sylvanas to piss off where she ordered Varimathras to do the same with the human and he gladly did so. Garithos was a Lordaeron resident just as much as the majority of Sylvanas' people are. Neither were happy with the latter and even the remnants of the Silver Hand intended to eradicate the Forsaken despite knowing they were free-willed.

Adding insult to injury, she basically agreed to a deal with one of -the- worst titans Helya in exchange for her own immortality. It has -nothing- to do with her peoples future, it has-everything- to do with her own.

Helya isn't a titan, she's not even a titan watcher like Odyn, Thor, Tyr or Freya. She was a titan-forged, a product much like the original Earthen and Vrykul. The Val'kyr secure Sylvanas' future as well as her own. After all, the Forsaken cannot procreate and would die out normally. The Val'kyr solve this issue... I mean, we know this since Cataclysm. If you read Edge of Night you would also know she does care for her people. She mentions it a lot too.

She commited suicide atop Icecrown after Arthas death, then was ressurected by the Val'kyr, she experienced true horrors in oblivion that terrified her, she resolved -never- to go back to that darkness.

She also saw what would happen to her Forsaken if she remained dead. Part of the reason as to why she got out of that nightmare.

She is not interested in the future of the undead, they are a means to an end, a meatshield to her as much as Garrosh. The only difference is, at least Garrosh respected the Orcs that followed him, Sylvanas has -no- qualms throwing her own men to die in the persuit of personal victory.

Read Edge of Night again, then come back. Garrosh didn't respect the orcs that followed him. He bluntly said "Yes Ishi, you have." after Ishi died at the hands of the adventurer when he was unable to control the Sha energy from the Divine Bell. He didn't budge or flinch towards the orcs that became Sha themselves in that same moment. He discarded people left and right because they weren't up to his standards. Garrosh only respected the strong orcs.

I had -hoped- she would be redeemed after Vol'jins death and rather moving speech, but she chose the path of faustian damnation. She made a deal with Helya, who granted, was a tragic villian in her own right, but is still a -villian- and so too is Sylvanas as it doesnt take a genious to realize what kind of deal she -made- with the titan of the underworld.

Assuming is bad in this scenario, especially when we only see a part of the conversation between Helya and Sylvanas. It doesn't take a genius to realize that blindly going from half a conversation is a bad idea.

Be smart, and realize that your sanctified angel of darkness is nothing more than a devil in black feathers.

Be smart and educate yourself before you wreck yourself.

Shes -not- the good guy you think she is, shes as much a monster using a convinent war as an excuse to justify many murders and personal expansions. If you think shes so just then explain the following:

She's not a good individual, no. She's monstrous, yes. But so are the Ebon Blade. The Ebon Blade killed Argents just to try and get Tirion's corpse. Upon the command of the Lich King and his new Champion (the player). Know what Darion said to Lady Liadrin upon being called a monster? "Without monsters there can be no heroes." Sylvanas isn't a hero, she's a monster. She does what she has to, even if those means are vile or wicked. She did so to secure her position in the Horde, whether she likes the Horde or not. She did so to secure the future of her people and is still doing so. But by no means is she a hero or good.

- Why did she attack the Kirin'tor in Silverpine and Hillsbrad unprovoked?

The Kirin Tor imprisoned Forsaken in Alterac (now just part of Hillsbrad as a whole) in one of the old internment camps and was hostile to Horde as a whole since the release of WoW, even now the remnants are hostile (Cata revamp).

- Why did she doom the plaguelands after the Argent Dawn and Alliance tried to restore it?

She's not touching the Argent lands. The Alliance is taking the fight to the Forsaken at their damned doorstep, they're not trying to restore the Plaguelands. ... wait no, they might have that idea but priorities have them attack the Forsaken first to push them out of what is essentially their land as it's part of Lordaeron.

- Why did she attempt to plague multiple parts of Azeroth despite being ordered not to?

Multiple parts? You mean... Gilneas and Hillsbrad Foothills? The battle at Gilneas allowed a weaker strain, still she neglected those orders and went with the full power one. Hillsbrad Foothills is where Warden Stillwater, the one in charge of it all, is sentenced to True Death which is pretty much execution for the Forsaken.

- Why, did she intend to ressurect undead during the Siege of Orgrimmar?

More forces, always handy when you're besieging a literal fortress-city.

At -what- point was Sylvanas -ever- good?

In life.

Genn using only his Gilnean troops vs Sylvannas sicing the entire Horde on Genn.

Skyfire men aren't just his Gilnean troops.

I don't think Genn has any particular love for the Horde, but if Sylvanas was out of the picture then he definitely wouldn't be as aggressive towards the Horde as he is now. And Sylvanas isn't the Horde, she's just the Warchief and a divisive one at that. Vol'jin was reluctant to appoint her and pretty much every other leader except for Lor'themar isn't fond of her as Warchief either. Unless Genn kills her, the rest of the Horde isn't going to start a war with the Alliance when the Legion is assaulting Azeroth just because Genn broke her toy.

Lor'themar holds little love for the Dark Lady. He's made this clear in Shadow of the Sun, Tides of War and Siege of Orgrimmar.

When did Genn become such a good guy, willing to duke it out personally for the sake of the Alliance? Genn by all accounts before WoW was a cowardly snobbish asshole.

He was an asshole, yes. But most definitely he wasn't a coward.

Territory seized by the Scourge, territory she inherited from the Lich King.
Her territory is in Quel'thalas.

The Scourge took it from Lordaeron's citizens. She took it from the Scourge. The Forsaken are majorly humans, humans that are by lineage Lordaeron residents. Considering she liberated them and they revere her as their queen and saviour, her place is very much in Lordaeron. Quel'thalas is a bright and lush land, despite the Ghostlands and Dead Scar. Someone like Sylvanas holds no place there, no Forsaken does. She can go there but doesn't belong there. Living creatures shun undeath, she can't even have a living animal companion or a mount.

Yet she utilized monstrous technology and necromancy despite this very same "other Horde leader" being against it.

Garrosh was against the Plague and judged Sylvanas harshly for using the Val'kyr. Yet, he did nothing to stop her from using the Val'kyr because he knew she was right, he wouldn't have had a good foothold for the Horde on the Eastern Kingdoms if the Forsaken would eventually die out without any means to gain new soldiers. And his subjects still permitted the use of the Plague, even if they only allowed weaker strains.

It is quite clear that she had no regard for whatever any other leader told her, as she openly defied Garrosh and utilized everything he told her not to. Saying she followed orders is not right.

People might think I'm that much of a Sylvanas fanboi by now, which I actually am but this part actually stood out to me. And I completely agree with it. She doesn't have much regard for the words of the other Horde leaders maybe with the exception of Lor'themar despite the latter's aversion for her. Following the Siege of Orgrimmar, when interacted with, she even says she wouldn't be taking orders from a troll. Of course, that is two expansions before Legion where she did express concern over Vol'jin. Although that might just be from a militaristic standpoint where losing an important figure is bad news.

The Forsaken followed other Horde leaders(Garrosh only, to be specific) untill she returned. As soon as she returned, all the monstrous and attrocious things happened.

And they revelled at her return. It's not like they don't enjoy doing what she orders them to do. She's not just their queen, she's their idol.

Liberated from the ones that lived there, by killing and betraying all the humans that helped her liberate it.

Hardly. Garithos lived on the outskirts of Lordaeron, close by Quel'thalas' borders. His forces? His forces were a combination of dwarves and humans. The dwarves may be residents there but they never owned nor have any claim for Lordaeron. The humans that wanted her to piss off with her pet dreadlord and monstrous undead? The majority of the Forsaken lived there as well. Not their fault they became undead.

And then she killed the Humans whom she promised the City. You can't deny that Sylvanas kinda started aggressions against Humanity. Yeah, Garithos was an evil scumbag towards the Blood Elves, but we should learn to seperate different situations. Towards Sylvanas, he never did something wrong. He was the first Human who was willing to work with the Undead.

Sure, she said (not promised) that he could have the land back for its rightful owners. However Garithos was a hateful, racist asshole. He wouldn't have agreed to fight alongside her had she not done just that. He wasn't "willing", it's just that alone he wouldn't have stood a chance against Balnazzar. One Dreadlord was enough to turn his whole army into mindslaves. And Balnazzar was the strongest of the three. Not saying it was a correct thing to break her word but hey, her people were as much legitimate residents as the humans.

This. The amount of people who have no idea about this quest series in Silverpine is mind boggling. I keep seeing all these "why is Genn so mad" threads ughhhh. Sylvanas invaded Gilneas, killed Genn's son, forced surrender after threatening to murder and raise Crowley's daughter as an undead, and sacked the city. Sylvanas deserves everything bad that happens to her.

Genn has every reason to be mad. However Sylvanas never initiated the invasion, Garrosh did - Garrosh wanted another foothold on Eastern Kingdoms and set out to sack Gilneas. Liam son was the one who took the shot for his father, it's his own damn fault for jumping between the Dark Lady and Greymane. Not saying the death of his son isn't a good reason but he took that shot voluntarily to save Genn. The forced surrender? You mean forced ceasefire? Read the dialogue again, both sides would withdraw troops. Later on the Bloodfang Pack and Stormpike Clan initiate.

The forsaken, undead, necromantic Abominations, even dare to call Gilneans Monsters.

In the words of Nathanos Blightcaller: "You call us monsters? How rich!"

Shes a keeper, whom are basically Titan watchers, who are basically titans in turn.

Wrong, she's Titan-forged. The Titans made the Watchers (the Titans were too large to handle problems on Azeroth after Aman'thul ripped out Y'Shaarj and made the spot where the Well of Eternity was). The Watchers are Loken, Tyr, Hodir, Freya, Thorim, Odyn, Mimiron, Ra-Den, Archaedas, Ironaya. Titan-forged, which is what Helya was, were the armies made by the Titanic Watchers to combat the forces of the Black Empire (Old Gods) on Azeroth and later to safeguard it.

Shes also daughter of Odyn, who -is- a keeper, logic.

Again, wrong. She's a surrogate daughter of Odyn. He considered her like a daughter and she considered him a father. A father that destroyed his 'daughter' in order to create the first Val'kyr.

She basically threw her troops at Skold-Ashil in an effort to conquer it, and got pissed off when they failed. She also threw her troops wastefully at Stromgarde in an effort to conquer it during Cataclysm and The Hinterlands, both, went badly for her. She makes pretty much every undead swear loyalty to the dark lady upon creation and insists they are greatful for being given a second life. She claims to care about them and their free will but honestly only wants them to serve her.

She didn't really throw them at Skold-Ashil but was annoyed for their failure at succeeding, as would any military leader be when his subjects fail to accomplish their tasks. Sylvanas might be their queen but she's also the highest military officer for the Forsaken and a reknowned tactician. She didn't become Ranger-General of Quel'thalas for no reason. Stromgarde went pretty good all things considered because in Legion it's majorly undead-controlled (granted, these are led by Prince Galen Trollbane who decided to break away from the Forsaken. Before the Forsaken can deliver any retribution for this - if such was ever intended to happen - the Ebon Blade kills Galen through their player Champion). The Hinterlands is token forces for the Revantusk and research.

Play through the starting experience of the Forsaken. Like, literally level 1 - 5/6. You can see that the Forsaken that the Val'kyr raise do have a choice.
1. You serve
2. You go on your own
3. You go hostile and get put down.

Lilian Voss is an example of one that went on her own. There's other Forsaken, some old some new that reject Sylvanas' rule or just don't agree with it. Three of which all in the Argent Crusade. Why do most join the Forsaken anyway when raised? Well, who would accept them for what they are? Most of the living hate them, their former families would resent them. They join because they feel like only the Forsaken would accept their undeath status.

Garrosh actually promoted, respected and listened to many of his Orc companions and often would do what he could to help them personally in the field. He was -not- afraid to get his own hands dirty at first, only after letting the Dark Horde and the likes of Malkorok in did things start to go sour.

Garrosh never listened to anyone that wasn't an orc. Sylvanas, as a ranger, often goes out into the field herself and lead her troops while fighting alongside them. It's fine if you want to have your opinions on Sylvanas but don't use your lack of knowledge as a means to hate her.

She used it as an excuse to use questionable means in conflict while everyone was pinning the hate on Garrosh. She blighted Andorhal beyond repair, she corrupted Hillsbrad to hell, she raised the fallen nephew of Danath trollbane in an effort to conquer Stromgarde and failed. She even captured Koltira simply because he allowed alliance soldiers and civilians to escape during the sacking of Andorhal because she wanted them turned into undead.

She didn't blight Andorhal. No plague was used in Andorhal, only the Val'kyr. Plague was used at one of the Alliance-controlled farms but not at Andorhal, at least not from the Horde side of things. The Warden responsible for Hillsbrad was sentenced to True Death (considered the highest possible punishment for Forsaken, i.e. it's execution), not by her but by other officials and the Forsaken actually sought to clean up their plague at Southshore. Raising the heir to Stromgarde is a pretty logical move if you want to take it over. Abominable, yes but also logical. What Koltira did was a dumb move and could be considered treason. He consorted with the Alliance and let his buddy retreat.

The undead claim a land that belongs to the living who have done -nothing- to attack them, yes that seems pretty evil.

The Forsaken claim a land that belongs to them. Again, majority of the Forsaken are former living residents of Lordaeron. What makes them have any less say in this? Their undead status? The living did nothing to attack them? Pretty sure Alexandros Mograine and the Silver Hand remnants sought to wipe them out. Humanity doesn't like the Forsaken, they wouldn't share the land with their former kin because they're undead. This is pretty much the key motivator for Forsaken as a whole: The living HATE them. They resent the undead.

Andorhal was a rebuilding project, not an invasion, they wanted to recolonise a lost alliance territory and only had a military presence there to protect the workers trying to rebuild the lost land.

Not a smart move when you try to do this in the backyard of the Forsaken.

Sylvanas is not interested in her kingdom, shes interested in herself, her kingdom is a means to an end.

Read Edge of Night, play through the Horde side of Stormheim and Silverpine Forest.

Whew... this took longer than I thought.

[Graden]

=

Genn has every reason to be mad. However Sylvanas never initiated the invasion, Garrosh did - Garrosh wanted another foothold on Eastern Kingdoms and set out to sack Gilneas. Liam son was the one who took the shot for his father, it's his own damn fault for jumping between the Dark Lady and Greymane. Not saying the death of his son isn't a good reason but he took that shot voluntarily to save Genn. The forced surrender? You mean forced ceasefire? Read the dialogue again, both sides would withdraw troops. Later on the Bloodfang Pack and Stormpike Clan initiate.

I see this a lot lately, and while it's indeed true, I still can't completely justify Sylvanas. Liam indeed was the one who decided to take the shot for his father. But I wouldn't call it a suicide, I mean obviously he wouldn't want to die, I would call it an action of love towards his father. Even if Genn would take the shot instead of his son, things wouldn't be any better. The King of Gilneas would be dead, and instead of an angry Genn you'd have a vengeful Liam. And the Gilneans would still be a lot angry if not way more, if you count how much they seem to love their leader.

The result would be the same no matter what, King or Prince, and it would be by Sylvana's hands. I am well aware that the Forsaken were forced to join this war, same as the Gilneans who although were already shattered, got forced to go to war against a major power.
But when Sylvanas took the matter on her own hands, I don't understand why she didn't choose a more diplomatic option, rather than killing a big amount of Gilneans and their King (although in the end, she got the Prince).

It's worth mentioning that I am one of those who like a lot both Greymane and Sylvanas (Greymane a bit more tbh) and I don't want to see either of them to end up dead. I enjoy their conflict a lot.

[dirk123]

As a player who plays both factions, I kinda want Sylvanas raise Liam Greymane to spite Genn.

[Stormdash]

Greymane destroyed (or at least delayed) Sylvanas' path to immortality.

Sylvanas is the new Warchief.

So is it a stretch to imagine Sylvanas going after Greymane as revenge?

Yeah, she'll leave that kind of absurdly off-task personal vendetta to the Alliance, thanks. I mean, she didn't even really pull the Horde off-task in Stormheim since she told the Player Character to worry about the Aegis first and foremost.