Legion Theorycrafting [7.3, All specs]

[Effinhunter]

Should I use an 850 Relic with cobra shot dmg over an 825 one with beast cleave dmg?
I just dont think the 6 ilvl on weapon would outweight 10% beast cleave dmg in an aoe situation and I only plan on using bm in mythic+, but Im not 100% sure on this.

I didn't give BM and SV the same treatment I gave MM regarding relics. My bad. The following details what I'm seeing for BM up to 20 weapon item level increases (since ilvl increases are so much less potent for BM, I wanted to show a bit more than I showed for MM), in comparison to trait increases. What you should do is obviously going to depend on what you are trying to maximize, but as has been noted before, the furious swipes trait is essentially the reason why 13 trait BM is competitive in Mythic+. Since you mentioned Mythic+ was what you were targeting, furious swipes is probably your target.

BM Relics:

1 Target, 50k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft source, Talents
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3 Target, 50k iterations, 180s +/- 20% (normalizing for stampede cd), Multitarget Simcraft Source, Talents


6 Target, 50k iterations, 180s +/- 20% (normalizing for stampede cd), Multitarget Simcraft Source, Talents

[eathdemon]

I have a 830 horn of valor and a 830 agi haste trinket. I assume I should be uing the haste trinket?

[Effinhunter]

I have a 830 horn of valor and a 830 agi haste trinket. I assume I should be uing the haste trinket?

http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/..._trinkets.html

If you are talking about MM trinkets, you can look this up by looking for HASTE (which should find the threetoed_rabbit_foot (-830--TF4---HASTE--), later down the list). When you find the threetoed_rabbit_foot (which is essentially equivalent to any other stat stick), you can see that the stat stick with haste at 830 ilvl is just below an 865 ilvl horn of valor (which isn't in the game yet, so it's marked orange--though it should probably be marked yellow since it will be out with EN because it will come from Mythic+ dungeons). So, yeah, the assumption that the haste stat stick is more powerful is true right now.

The stat sticks are a bit too powerful, imo. When situations like this have happened before (e.g. with Felspring Coil or the dungeon trinkets right before Highmaul/BRF), Blizzard tended to nerf them really quickly into a tier, but we'll see if they leave them this powerful in EN.

P.S. BM 6 target color-coded trinket sims are now uploaded. I have to travel over the next few days, so I may not be responding as frequently to this thread or messaging as usual. It may be a few days before I do SV relic sims to catch it up to the other two specs.

[Youn]

It looks like the 835 devilsaurs trinket works out to be able 5.5% of my overall damage. I would guess that would go up as the ilvl moves away from the base 830 trinket.

Also, Has anyone figured out what would be BIS neck for Lonewolf Marksman?

[eathdemon]

http://effin.highfiveguild.com/sims/..._trinkets.html

If you are talking about MM trinkets, you can look this up by looking for HASTE (which should find the threetoed_rabbit_foot (-830--TF4---HASTE--), later down the list). When you find the threetoed_rabbit_foot (which is essentially equivalent to any other stat stick), you can see that the stat stick with haste at 830 ilvl is just below an 865 ilvl horn of valor (which isn't in the game yet, so it's marked orange--though it should probably be marked yellow since it will be out with EN because it will come from Mythic+ dungeons). So, yeah, the assumption that the haste stat stick is more powerful is true right now.

The stat sticks are a bit too powerful, imo. When situations like this have happened before (e.g. with Felspring Coil or the dungeon trinkets right before Highmaul/BRF), Blizzard tended to nerf them really quickly into a tier, but we'll see if they leave them this powerful in EN.

P.S. BM 6 target color-coded trinket sims are now uploaded. I have to travel over the next few days, so I may not be responding as frequently to this thread or messaging as usual. It may be a few days before I do SV relic sims to catch it up to the other two specs.

got it, so acorrding to that my haste one and crit one beat all other trinkets I have.

[Effinhunter]

got it, so acorrding to that my haste one and crit one beat all other trinkets I have.

It's very possible. It looks like we're in a very similar situation, trinket-wise, as we were when Highmaul was coming out. Back then, Lucky Double-sided Coin was BiS at raid release, and Six-Feather Fan seems like it will maintain this kind of lead up to Mythic+/EN release. Back then, Blizzard decided that dungeon trinkets and stat sticks were too powerful compared to the trinkets from Highmaul, so they nerfed the dungeon items instead of buffing Highmaul trinkets. However, I don't think we'll have the same nerf this time because there is an Emerald Nightmare trinket that does appear to be a top performer, and Blizzard also appears to have a very different gearing philosophy that favors personal side quests, dungeons, etc. I'd be surprised if we saw another major trinket nerf like we saw before Highmaul.


Anyway, I'm in an airport waiting on a delayed flight, so I'm running some sims while working on presentations and papers. Here's what I currently have for SV relics for 1, 3 and 6 targets. I don't like the Raptor strike trait's representation because I know I could probably eek out a bit more dps by using a different talent build that would actually use Raptor Strike, but the ability is just so poorly tuned, that I don't feel it's even worth tweaking around. Unless they buff it significantly, it's just not very good or interesting and to get more out of it, you'd really need to not take Throwing Axes, which is a better tuned ability/talent.

SV relics, single target, 30k iterations, 450s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


SV relics, three target, 30k iterations, 180s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


SV relics, six target, 30k iterations, 180s +/- 20%, Simcraft Source


I definitely think the SV and BM APLs could use some major love and attention, but I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to really dig into them.

- - - Updated - - -

Also, Has anyone figured out what would be BIS neck for Lonewolf Marksman?

mastery > haste

Generally, go for a neck with high mastery, some haste, and a socket, where possible. High mastery with crit is ok too, but a 150 mastery socket should add ~1k dps at the 840/870 gear level.

[Zamochy]

I definitely think the SV and BM APLs could use some major love and attention, but I'm not sure when I'll get a chance to really dig into them.

New to these forums, but after I tried using SimCraft for SV I noticed Fury of the Eagle wasn't listed anywhere in my damage. Also, I noticed that the program doesn't differentiate between pets, even though any pet with a Mortal Strike debuff would trigger Hunting Companion more often due to have an extra ability on a 6 second CD. Then there's the question between Ferocity vs Tenacity due to Thunderstomp also triggering Hunting Companion.

I think your sims would account for FotE, but do they account for pet differences?

[Effinhunter]

The Sims should be taking into account FotE, but I am not gaming the pets. People have asked about tenacity vs. ferocity for both BM and SV, but I have not personally looked into such sims. Has anyone else?

[Kwaai]

I think there was some discussion about 13 into BM, 20 in MM, then up to 26 for BM before finishing MM. Are people doing that, or just dumping everything into MM?

[Deleted]

Since I'm going to be a Normal/Heroic raider and M+ player, I've kinda gone 21 into BM, and only recently fixed Bullseye in MM. Will wait for the AK to get up a bit before getting the remaining points for MM. I really feel that M+ will yield more loot at the start, so I'm going bonkers M+ Bm madness, even though I'm planning on stopping BM after pack leader is complete, but who knows!

[Deleted]

Gonna keep my AP items till Friday to wait for the balance patch.

[Deleted]

Gonna keep my AP items till Friday to wait for the balance patch.

I tried to google what you mean but I failed. You don't want to spend any AP till the next tuning patch?
Did they even announce something?

[EliteNightKnight]

I tried to google what you mean but I failed. You don't want to spend any AP till the next tuning patch?
Did they even announce something?

They mentioned that we will have "huge" tuning patch right before raid content become available.

[bouchbagfett]

With Mythic+ opening next week I am curious what will be the best setup to min/max for serious progression. I realize for most hardcore players it is a means to an end and the real end is Mythic Raid. But I also know there will be a substantial number of players that don't participate in 20 man Mythic raids who will focus on Mythic+ to scratch their competitive pve itch. I am one of those people and so far the discussion in guides and on these forums is limited to general guidelines and a mix of DPS sims to finalize the most optimized Mythic+ setup. It is a complicated thing to min/max for since you will have to do everything from AoE to Single target dps and do so with minimal downtime. What do you focus on? Be great at one? Balance the two? What is the penalty of going all out for one trait like AoE?

In an attempt to figure out what is best I did a bunch of sims on AskMrRobot with a full 840 Mastery/Haste gear set. The talents that seem the most swapable in BM are Bestial Fury/Blink Strikes and Stampede/Killer Cobra. Relic wise we have Jaws of Thunder for single target, Furious Swipes for AoE, and maybe Wilderness Expert for balance? I used Iskar for AoE and Short Single Target for single target sims and did a combo of all of the above. All Relics were the same for a total of +3 at 840. I yielded the following chart:

http://imgur.com/eXeac1d

What I don't know is:

-How good of a sim is Iskar for Aoe?
-Is fight length messing up Stampede's value
-Are the APL's appropriate for AoE vs Single Target
-What percent will I be doing AoE vs Single Target dps in Mythic+
-How will pack pacing change my dps
-Lots of other things

Hopefully this starts a useful discussion on how best to model and also decided the best Mythic+ setup.

*wont show chart, never had an issue before but never used imgur for picture links here.

[Deleted]

Im pretty sure its already been stated & confirmed that BM for M+ and MM for raiding cos of their respective toolkits.

Outside of that, I genuinely don't understand what you want

[bouchbagfett]

I genuinely don't understand what you want

Sigh. So we 100% know what is the best talent and relic setup for Mythic+ is?

[aznxk3vi17]

Sigh. So we 100% know what is the best talent and relic setup for Mythic+ is?

Yes. Relics are a matter of ilvl and RNG drops. Talent setup is everywhere and a search will find you the answer.

[bouchbagfett]

Relics are a matter of ilvl and RNG drops

That isn't entirely true. For BM the talents have greater value than ilvl (within reason) and farming the correct talented relic from heroics is possible.

In Azor's own guide he states the level 60 and 100 talents have viable options. Those options are based on content and group dynamic. I can't believe there is no possible way to discuss this and anyone can definitively say there is 1 100% optimal path for all of Mythic+.

[aznxk3vi17]

(within reason)

Well then you should already know that there are no absolutes and if you use your head, you can create your own logical improvements to your character based on your gear, drops, and situation.

[bouchbagfett]

Isn't the point of this thread to have a conversation about this?