Metamorphosis too strong in pvp?

[Deleted]

Not surprised the people defending this stupid ability are the ones obviously playing it themselfs

ofc they do. DH is an all in class. If you dont, you most of the time end up dead. If DH gets nerfed they will end up as fury warriors. Nobody wants to be in that place, nobody deserves it either.

[JoshuaNLG]

I think a lot of people see a DH pop meta and panic which throws them off their game, because a DH is arguably the easiest class to CC in-game. A single mage can completely shut down a DH similarly to how they did warriors in the past, if not more. Hell, root a demon hunter and the only thing he can do damage wise is throw glaive unless it gets broken or cleansed, that alone is 8 seconds of meta wasted, then you have more roots, snares & los, stuns, etc.

I think it should be given another month or so first, that way it gives the slower players a chance to actually figure out how susceptible to CC Demon hunters really are.

[BannedForViews]

Then your point is idiotic. If a single DPS can never do more DPS than a healer can put out HPS then that means a DPS can never 1v1 a healer which is retarded and not balanced. You know what's also not enjoyable game play? Never ever ever being able to out damage a healer.

You're not talking about a patient thought out match. You want the grind fest style of pvp where you grind into the other players HP for hours with no hope of ever killing them until one of you does a miserable fuck up. Not because you're a better player or they're worse but because after 20 minutes someone has to fuck up eventually.

If there were no such thing as CC/interrupts, you might have a point, but that isn't the game. If a healer does the same amount of hps and offense can dps, 2 things happen. The first thing is that the healer can never dps back, so he will always lose. This sounds fun to you? A healers job is just to stand there and always die because you say so? Secondly, and more importantly, when the dps class uses it's cc/interrupts, it will get ahead of the healer, and eventually kill him.

Also, the game is balanced for 3v3 play, with 1 healer and 2 dps. The issue is not if a healer can out heal 1 player, it is can he out heal 2. The answer to the second question has to be no, but the first it doesn't. There are no healers in 2s now, so it doesn't matter if 1 dps can't kill a healer like you seem to think it does.


THE REAL ISSUE THOUGH, is how long do we think games should last. I think the answer is not shorter than the waiting zone for an arena match, nor shorter than the rez timer when you die. I do not advocate 30 minute matches, and with dampening that can't happen anyway, but I certainly don't think that 30 second matches is good game design.

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I think a lot of people see a DH pop meta and panic which throws them off their game, because a DH is arguably the easiest class to CC in-game. A single mage can completely shut down a DH similarly to how they did warriors in the past, if not more. Hell, root a demon hunter and the only thing he can do damage wise is throw glaive unless it gets broken or cleansed, that alone is 8 seconds of meta wasted, then you have more roots, snares & los, stuns, etc.

I think it should be given another month or so first, that way it gives the slower players a chance to actually figure out how susceptible to CC Demon hunters really are.

So your solution to being killed in 5 seconds is learn to cc? You don't see a problem in the speed in which pvp encounters end?

[ShiyoKozuki]

Do you people realise that DHs have the worst defensives in the game?

Our only real defensive is Metamorphasis. Our best defense is literally offense. We only get self heals whilst in Meatmorphasis. Blur is a garbage defensive.


I'm all for nerfing Meta but that means you have to buff our damage outside Meta and also reduce its ridiculous 4 minute cooldown.


Please stop talking about shit you don't understand.

You should probably look up other classes defensive before you say you have the worst in the game.

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I think a lot of people see a DH pop meta and panic which throws them off their game, because a DH is arguably the easiest class to CC in-game. A single mage can completely shut down a DH similarly to how they did warriors in the past, if not more. Hell, root a demon hunter and the only thing he can do damage wise is throw glaive unless it gets broken or cleansed, that alone is 8 seconds of meta wasted, then you have more roots, snares & los, stuns, etc.

I think it should be given another month or so first, that way it gives the slower players a chance to actually figure out how susceptible to CC Demon hunters really are.

Throw glaive can actually solo people with the talent, it's stupid.

[BannedForViews]

I don't think anyone wants to go back to healers being un-killable demigods either. It was incredibly frustrating to have 4-5 people wailing on a healer in a BG and he still wouldn't go down due to stupid amounts of defensives that have now been toned down.

That isn't at all what I wrote and you know that. I said very simply: If pvp is balanced around 3s, then a healer has to be strong enough to be BETTER than a 3rd dps in a 3v3 team. This means he has to heal for at least slightly more than the dps of the 3rd player/provide utility. I went on to say the issue of balance is not how much this or that class should do but..



HOW LONG SHOULD MATCHES LAST.


When you know the answer to how long a match should last, then you will know the answer to how much healing/damage different classes should do. It is not easy, but it IS that simple.


Also, plenty of people have QQd about rogues and monks, and feral, and arms, and....all melee.

[Deleted]

Demon Hunter after Metamorphosis is extremely squishy. That's my only problem tbh.

[BannedForViews]

You're in the wrong thread then mate? Isn't this thread specifically about Metamorphasis? While I do agree with you that damage may be a little too high across the board I also do not agree that a healer should just be able to stand there and heal for more than 3 DPS.

Holy fuck, why can nobody read on this website. I never said HEAL FOR MORE THAN 3 DPS! This is really fucking simple guy.

you have 2 dps on a team. You have to decide, "Do I bring another dps or do I bring a healer?" If the answer is that you bring another dps, because they do more than whatever the healer can do, then you have successfully removed healers from pvp, and everyone should just roll dps to be more efficient. You have also ruined the game. That is near where we are now. A healer, to be relevant, BY DEFAULT, has to be more valuable than a single dps. It's basic arithmetic. Not better than 3 dps, just better than 1.

And you are still completely ignoring what matters, which is GAME LENGTH.

I am totally in the right thread. People cry about Meta, or about this, and about that. I agree in almost all cases. Damage is stupid as fuck right now. But if you have no idea about what your goal is, then you can't "fix it." If you want pvp "encounters" to last under 10 seconds, well then shit, the game is perfect! If on the other hand you think something like a 3v3 match should last around 5-7 minutes, then the game is in terrible shape.

[Snegovik]

the way i see it, a good healer should be able to out heal 2 average DPS,
a good DPS should be able to solo an average healer
and a good healer should be able to go toe to toe with a good DPS unless he makes a mistake (messes up D-cds or get kicked) or if DPS get help from external force (aka his teamate). Of course the healer should not die in a global but eventually he should.
But i do not believe that a good healer should be able to out healer 2 good dps, if healer's team lets 2x GOOD dps sit on their healer, healer should die between 60-90 seconds if no1 helps him.

Game length, will vary for different comps, some comps counter other comps, one are burst/train healer others is aids comp and waiting for rotting to begin. But my opinion if two teams of multi R1 players face each other, who know their classes perfect, games should last between 10 and 18 minutes.

[Appelgren]

The argument that excuses their stupid CD is that "if you time cds correct and you are not terribad then they are easy kill lol"

That seems to be the argument that comes up every time a class is op and someone has to defend it... abandoning this tho since its
like trying to talk sense to religious extremists..

[Dairu]

Please tell me who has worse defensives than a Havoc DH?

Blur: 50% dodge and 35% reduced damage. 2 half baked defensives do not make a good one.

Darkness: Ground targetted AoE that gives 15% to dodge all damage if you stand inside its measely 8yard radius.


That's it. Of course you can also call Metamorphasis a defensive. And herein lies the problem you all seem to be whinging about. Metamorphasis is too strong because it does too much at once. Although with Artifact talents it is tied to a FOUR MINUTE COOLDOWN.

Boomkins have a 1 min cooldown 12 second duration 20% shield wall for their sole defensive cooldown.

I'd love to have Blur/meta instead. Love to.

[Sethanor]

worst defensive in the game is def. fury warrior...

we have ONE def-cd on a 2 minute cd which JUST negates our additional-dmg taken and half of it is an offensive part where you NEED to be on a target to make use of it.

please dont EVER talk about bad defensives as a DH... yes youre not a rogue either, but your FAR from being as bad as fury is.

[Crruor]

I think DHs seem very strong atm because the absurd amount of CDs and meta being basicely super wings means they are insanely strong in 2s skirms that last for under a minute and their cleave makes them strong in bgs. I am not sure that they are that good comes healer/dps 2s and 3s.

[Onizuka]

In my opinion a Healer should do more HPS then a DPS does DPS - so the DPS has to use Stuns/kicks etc to kill the healer, and the healer has to use fakecasting/cc to survive.

Exactly this!
If a DPS does more dmg than a healer can HPS put, then healers would be a few globals laughstock in 3s?

[Deleted]

Demon Hunter after Metamorphosis is extremely squishy. That's my only problem tbh.

Does it really matter? The game is over before Meta ends

[Cizr]

PvP is not balanced around your 2v2 skirmish where you and your dps friend are standing on top of each other getting cleaved to death.

[Deleted]

Does it really matter? The game is over before Meta ends

Ret paladins doing 1-2mil dmg on stunned targets (once every 45 seconds HoJ?) Yet people are complaining over DH doing too much DMG. That part I'm not a big fan over.

Meta cooldown and length should imo both be reduced it would make DH feel less squishy in the long run and not provide that dmg boost for such long periods either.


However, to say that the game is over before Meta ends is only in lower tiers or when setups counter eachother. Or outside 3v3 arena. 2v2 skirmishes are equally insane no matter what classes you bring to the table.

[Ashgaan]

Ret paladins doing 1-2mil dmg on stunned targets (once every 45 seconds HoJ?) Yet people are complaining over DH doing too much DMG. That part I'm not a big fan over.

Meta cooldown and length should imo both be reduced it would make DH feel less squishy in the long run and not provide that dmg boost for such long periods either.


However, to say that the game is over before Meta ends is only in lower tiers or when setups counter eachother. Or outside 3v3 arena. 2v2 skirmishes are equally insane no matter what classes you bring to the table.

Ret pallies don't do that in Instanced PvP. World PvP and duels are garbage now, some classes will one-shot you without preparation needed, nor big CDs, so let's not mix those in actual PvP.

Meta must be reduced in all aspects, including CD. If you get countered during it, i don't see running around for 4 minutes as a viabile strategy. Also, pumping up the dmg outside meta without reducing it will create more problems (so i hope blizz will not fuck it up). I don't want another ret pally who is god with Wings and shit without it.

Also Blur is a nice defensive, especially considering the interaction it has in the trees (where you get free blurs), don't compare Abilities alone as they have quite a big amount of interaction in Legion with your talents, pvp talents and artifact weapon (i could say that Healing surge is shit, but then i have artifact that pumps it by 45% and a talent that will replicate it after 3 second, now that same shit spell is 3 times more powerful, if you get to use it )

They had good ideas with PvP but implemented them very poorly.
1. Templates should exist, but only to manipulate the effect of abilities between PvE and PvP (blizz way of giving up on connecting the 2) and maybe dictating the HP and Main stat, but don't touch the secondaries i want some freedom there .. i want to decide if i want to be bursting or pressuring. Cookie cutter specs will exist no matter what, but you play best what fits you best.
2. Self heals for everyone, even control/burst classes have it. There were days when rogues would vanish to bandage, or hunters trapped to do the same, or mages sheep for that. Now all these things are just used for offensive purposes. Cut down selfhealing and slow down the pace of the game a little.
3. good rewards for both winning or losing, otherwise ppl will leave which creates frustration and really takes away form the magic of the game. When ppl don't quit comebacks are quite possible and rewarding.
4. Marks system back as i want to be flexible in choosing what set of gear i want and what pieces i want. WoD had a good system, PvP gear was not trash in PvE, at least not for casual play (i do not expect to be fully decked in top PvP gear and be close to the top of the meters in mythics), and PvP gear was easy to get (not top tier PvP)
5. Burrow Star Wars system of gear in PvP. For those who do not know, when you enter Instanced PvP you get a bonus based on the gear you DON'T have (some thresholds were there also, like do not equip your PvP gear until you have x numbers otherwise it would have been worse). Blizz could refine it to something like : so you have this 4 pieces of PvP gear on you and the rest of 9 are PvE, those PvE pieces are now replaced with template 800 iLvL PvP gear.

Bottom line, Legion did great in refining spec identity (even though some will not agree, you can't please everyone) and creating a big world in which there are a lot of things to do (with the bad parts: gated, grinding and so on). Overall it can be the best expansion to date if they put a little effort and brain into it.

[Deleted]

@Ashgaan:

"instanced pvp"
So I've experienced first hand how I drop 2mil HP in less than 2 seconds in both arena skirmishes as well as BG's.
My gladiator Rshaman is getting gimped in the first 2 seconds in HoJ if he doesn't trinket it directly.

Free blurs, wrong. We get 2 Fel Rush charges when we use Blur. I don't mind a more balanced approach in terms of effeciency, CD, Duration but defensive CDs are very limited unlike a Ret paladin for example. Also, DHs are very weak vs CC unlike, again, Ret paladins.


People will learn how to play against DH's ret paladins dont need to care about this, they stun and click 1 button and deal between 500k-1.5mil dmg in that 1 global instant attack.

[Himora]

im yet to find a healer that can survive more than 5 seconds 1v1 against my DH, yes they are stupid retarded. but you need to remember the devs are also stupid retarded and dont expect balance anytime soon, either re-roll or unsub.

[Deleted]

As a DH player:

Sheep/Blind/Hex me when I pop it. Once trinket it because I don't want to lose 1/3 of my Meta duration stunlock me and burst me. There is nothing I can do in that situation (unless I have healer popping cooldowns to save me). I can't Blur, and I can't heal through leech because I can't hit anything. Also Cloak/Evasion/Parry/Riposte/Karma basically stops me dead in tracks and allows me getting bursted down. Roots are also great too as I can't break them and my three gapclosers are useless. Frost Mages are really tough opponents for that reason.

Now I don't think its badly designed. Demon Hunters have insane burst/pressure, mobility but bad survivability and are vulnerable to CC. I would personally rather see decrease in our burst, buff to our non-meta damage and buff to survivablity, but it would go completely against the design of the spec.

In short, git gud and CC the fuck out of DHs.