It's pretty minor to what else Sylvanas has done, but anyone upset about Koltira?

[Aquamonkey]

The fact that the Forsaken are killing otherwise innocent farmers and turning them into undead is reason enough to put them at odds with the Argent Crusade. However, we never got to see what, if anything, would come from that. If they are even aware that it is going on.

Those weren't innocent farmers. They were conscripted into the Alliance military and trained for the Alliance assault on Andorhal.

[berdrek]

shes not evil she is just very pragmatic.. she will do whats best for her people, and she will slaughter anyone that gets in her way, she says it her self. I think a lot of people are just very self righteous and relate more to characters with a sense of "justice" but if you look at the story through her eyes, shes just doing her best to survive and put the undead rejects she calls her kingdom in a better place and she has to show the world their no push overs.. pragmatic, not evil. shes not say gul'dan i dont think she enjoys watching people burn or melt away with plague, she does it because she has to not because she wants to. "the evil guy, is the hero of the other side"

[Shedeo]

Those weren't innocent farmers. They were conscripted into the Alliance military and trained for the Alliance assault on Andorhal.

And that's a bad on the Alliance's end, but the farmers themselves did nothing wrong. On top of that, raising them as undead still puts the Forsake at philosophical odds with the Crusade any way you shake it.

[Mehrunes]

On the contrary, the closest major alliance power center to WPL is Iron forge, several zones away from WPL. So the fact is, the Alliance tried to establish their presence into Lordaeron by sending an expedition force and hoping that they could rally the local peasants to help them to gain a foothold while the forsaken were fighting at their doorsteps for securing their future. Apparently, under a decent leadership, Forsaken should win this conflict. That is why Sylvanas is so pissed off by Koltira's failure.

Not local farmers. There weren't any local farmers left other than those aligned with the Crusade if they had any. They were from Westfall from what I recall.

The fact that the Forsaken are killing otherwise innocent farmers and turning them into undead is reason enough to put them at odds with the Argent Crusade. However, we never got to see what, if anything, would come from that. If they are even aware that it is going on.

The Crusade doesn't care that the Ebon Blade dabbles in necromancy. Why would they care if Forsaken do so against someone that picked a fight with them?

Additionally, the Circle is attempting to restore the Plaguelands to the Not-So-Plaguelands and bring it back to what it was before. The Plaguelands are not Forsaken territory. They have been contested territory for a while now. If the Circle was attempting to move into Tirisfal or Silverpine, then I would certainly agree with you.

It sure as hell isn't Cenarion territory though. Out of all factions of Azeroth the Circle ranks near the bottom as far as rights to Plaguelands are concerned. Like, around the Magnataur low. Their actions are inconsequential to the Forsaken and Sylvanas isn't bound by them in any capacity. And Plaguelands belonged to Lordaeron. Forsaken claimed Lordaeron. From their perspective it's their land.

Now, I'm not saying that the Alliance should have won Andorhal- quite the opposite, actually. However, I am saying that Sylvanas made a gamble and, though she won the battle, she lost the war of resources. She can likely gain more from that campaign in the long run, but for now, the victory was quite costly. Part of this is Koltira's fault, part of this is the fault of the Banshee Queen.

It was only costly because of the surprise truce breaking by the Alliance. Which is entirely Koltira's fault.

And that's a bad on the Alliance's end, but the farmers themselves did nothing wrong. On top of that, raising them as undead still puts the Forsake at philosophical odds with the Crusade any way you shake it.

Except it's these farmers that broke the truce Koltira and Thassarian have made.

[Friendlyimmolation]

And that's a bad on the Alliance's end, but the farmers themselves did nothing wrong. On top of that, raising them as undead still puts the Forsake at philosophical odds with the Crusade any way you shake it.

How is attacking the Forsaken first doing nothing wrong? You attack someone and they will fight back / kill you.

[Ash123]

The fact that the Forsaken are killing otherwise innocent farmers and turning them into undead is reason enough to put them at odds with the Argent Crusade. However, we never got to see what, if anything, would come from that. If they are even aware that it is going on.

There are several reasons that Argent Crusade did nothing. First, the farmers killed by Forsaken are not innocent. They are part of Alliance and are active in the Alliance/Horde war. And Argent Crusade does not mess up with faction wars, they are more concerned with the overall threat towards the whole world. Second, Sylvanas uses Val'kyr to raise undead not to conquer the whole world. Her concern is more about the safety and future of forsaken. And her subjects do have free will. So her actions are only enough to alert the Argent crusade but are far from sufficient for Crusade to act against her.

Additionally, the Circle is attempting to restore the Plaguelands to the Not-So-Plaguelands and bring it back to what it was before. The Plaguelands are not Forsaken territory. They have been contested territory for a while now. If the Circle was attempting to move into Tirisfal or Silverpine, then I would certainly agree with you.

As a successor of Lordaeron, theoretically Forsaken has legal claim over WPL and EPL. Practically, currently WPL is split between Forsaken and Crusade. There might be some disputed areas but I am sure that Forsaken does control a large part of WPL and does not want the Circle to "cure" their land.

Now, I'm not saying that the Alliance should have won Andorhal- quite the opposite, actually. However, I am saying that Sylvanas made a gamble and, though she won the battle, she lost the war of resources. She can likely gain more from that campaign in the long run, but for now, the victory was quite costly. Part of this is Koltira's fault, part of this is the fault of the Banshee Queen.

Why it is a gamble? Her campaigns essentially drive the Alliance force out of the old Lordaeron area. With Gilneas in ruin, the northern part of east kingdom is shared by Forsaken, Blood elves and neutral faction Argent Crusade. I would say this is the best enviroment that Forsaken could get. At the end of MOP, after defeating Garrosh, Varian said "we must contain Sylvanas" rather than "destroy her". Her success had made Varian to give up the idea of taking back Lordaeron.

[Rampant Rabbit]

Morally questionable? Yes. Evil? Wouldn't quite say that. What she does, she does for her people and for the Horde, not out of pure self-interest. It's less-so a case of "I'M EVIL MWAHAHAHAH" and more-so "The end justifies the means- I don't give a fuck what everyone else thinks."

Yeah, more people should understand this.

[Shedeo]

I'm guessing I must have done the quests in the wrong order or something, because the way I recall it going down was that we stomped east out of the Bulwark and wrecked those farmers, then moved on to Andorhal. It seems that I need to go through it a different way with a fresh set of eyes.

That being said, however, the Ebon Blade and the Forsaken approach necromancy, and raising undead, very differently (rather, did until very recently, what with ol' Bolvar). One blights the land with the plague and turn people into new Forsaken. The other has a variety of superpowers that allow them to mess with it. Given that the Crusade and the Circle's goal is to restore the Plaguelands to their former glory, the Forsaken's methods are somewhat contrary to this, whereas the Death Knights were content to sit in their spooky castle, and at that point, had decided to simply be reabsorbed by their respective factions.

And it's a gamble because every war is a gamble. Had Sylvanas failed, she would have gotten nothing but negative values on her census records. She still got that, but managed to pull out the victory. The smarter thing to do would have been to simply work with the Crusade in securing the Western Plaguelands as a joint operation that wouldn't require the use of the plague or necromancy at all, and put them on even better terms with Tirion. At that point, Tirion would likely be more inclined to not allow the Alliance to move large numbers of troops through the area, effectively cutting them off from reclaiming Lordaeron (which they can't even reclaim anyway, since despite it's contested nature, the Forsaken are the original inhabitants of the region, and I think that Tirion would respect that).

On the other hand, she seemed pretty pissed at the Crusade/heroes because of the fact that there was still a Lich King, so she might have let that blind her to approaching Tirion with other options.

Of course, that may not have worked if the Alliance were already establishing a foothold in Andorhal, and given the time it takes them to build or repair ANYTHING (which is the one benefit to orc architecture, I'll give them that), I would guess they already had. However, I still put part of the blunder on Sylvanas if only because the Alliance were so cut off from their supplies and reinforcements that securing a victory in Andorhal should have been a breeze if the Forsaken made proper use of their resources and manpower (on the other hand, this is a problem with every single faction in the game IMO, so it is a bit unfair of me to say so in this regard specifically).

At the end of the day though Sylvanas was as much there as Koltira was. She could have easily stepped in, taken the reins, and wiped Thassarian's forces out.

I will admit, however, that some doubt has been thrown on my memories of the quests, so I will take some time to go back and redo them.

[Mehrunes]

I'm guessing I must have done the quests in the wrong order or something, because the way I recall it going down was that we stomped east out of the Bulwark and wrecked those farmers, then moved on to Andorhal. It seems that I need to go through it a different way with a fresh set of eyes.

You can't even do it first. It only unlocks after you defeat the Scourge at Andorhal.

That being said, however, the Ebon Blade and the Forsaken approach necromancy, and raising undead, very differently (rather, did until very recently, what with ol' Bolvar). One blights the land with the plague and turn people into new Forsaken. The other has a variety of superpowers that allow them to mess with it. Given that the Crusade and the Circle's goal is to restore the Plaguelands to their former glory, the Forsaken's methods are somewhat contrary to this, whereas the Death Knights were content to sit in their spooky castle, and at that point, had decided to simply be reabsorbed by their respective factions.

How is Blight relevant to necromancy? But sure, Ebon Blade sure does have a different approach to necromancy. Unlike the Forsaken the primary result of their resurrection is mindless undead. Which makes them worse. And the Crusade having different goals for the Plaguelands does not make Forsaken evil in itself and gives them no authority or even a particular reason for them to oversee them, let alone make Ebon Blade do that. The Crusade has no jurisdiction over the Forsaken, their claim for the Plaguelands is weaker and the Forsaken don't have to care about them deplaguing anything or doing anything else. And they still Blighted only the land they conquered and left Crusade in EPL and their part of WPL to their own devices.

And it's a gamble because every war is a gamble. Had Sylvanas failed, she would have gotten nothing but negative values on her census records. She still got that, but managed to pull out the victory. The smarter thing to do would have been to simply work with the Crusade in securing the Western Plaguelands as a joint operation that wouldn't require the use of the plague or necromancy at all, and put them on even better terms with Tirion. At that point, Tirion would likely be more inclined to not allow the Alliance to move large numbers of troops through the area, effectively cutting them off from reclaiming Lordaeron (which they can't even reclaim anyway, since despite it's contested nature, the Forsaken are the original inhabitants of the region, and I think that Tirion would respect that).

So you're saying the Crusade should have allied themselves with the Forsaken against the Alliance? Because Blight and necromancy weren't necessary to defeat the Scourge. They were necessary to clean up Koltira's mess.

Of course, that may not have worked if the Alliance were already establishing a foothold in Andorhal, and given the time it takes them to build or repair ANYTHING (which is the one benefit to orc architecture, I'll give them that), I would guess they already had. However, I still put part of the blunder on Sylvanas if only because the Alliance were so cut off from their supplies and reinforcements that securing a victory in Andorhal should have been a breeze if the Forsaken made proper use of their resources and manpower (on the other hand, this is a problem with every single faction in the game IMO, so it is a bit unfair of me to say so in this regard specifically).

And it was a breeze. Once Sylvanas took over the Alliance was steamrolled with Chillwind Camp being next. They managed to kill a Val'kyr, sure, but that did nothing for the Alliance to halt Forsaken's progress. Had Koltira attacked earlier there would be no sudden truce breaking that created the whole mess because he was completely unprepared for such a scenario.

[Christan]

Evil because of that? No...
It could be argued him only commiting the one act is because he has been inprisoned.
That she has kept him alive, instead of giving him the death penalty should be a plus not a negative lol

She is utterly evil though i agree

[Deleted]

Evil is subjective.