Legion - Outlaw Discussion

[Deleted]

They're VERY good outside our CD's. But why in a short duration encounter would you waste the bulk of your dps, especially with run through relics, into a poor burst roll. 1 single roll of anything else besides broadsides and buried treasure>both of them during ar+cotdb. Plus, in a short duration encounter, you're only going to get 1 usage in (unless you have bad dps with you and rolled true bearing during burst), so why not spend a few extra rolls? i.e increasing stacks of alacrity. The only time I could see it being beneficial to blow cd's in poor 2 buff rolls is if you have a proc trinket and you notice the proc on pull or if you have a group with such good dps and hero on pull that the boss dies in like 40 secs. lol

My point is, this spec is no just face roll 2 buffs. Maybe for the more casual player, which I believe was blizz's intention. Make the spec more rewarding to the players who "play it" but still make it viable and playable for folks who don't. There is NO dispute that adapting the combat flow to the rtb buffs creates better results, ESPECIALLY regarding Broadsides and Shark in The Water with pistol shot/ghostly strike usage outside cd's.

CotD is bad with broadsides.

But wouldnt everything else you said be true with any buff except shark infested waters

[RapBreon]

http://www.simulationcraft.org/reports/Raid_T19P.html

the hell are you looking at?

look at that? its not even close to being "only 7k"

ours is 254 - 428 = 183k gap

warriors = 298 - 430 = 132k gap

Feral = 293 - 372 = 79k

The average dps swing of the specs. Not the absolute outlier cases. Which while can happen will not constitute 95% of your play. Using outliers as if they were is not correct.

Here is what I was looking at;

Outlaw = 75133.3 / 23.7%

Arms = 66834.8 / 18.8%

Feral = 41687.5 / 12.5%

Basically in 95% of cases that's the typical amount of variance you would expect. Arms being really not that far behind the king of gambling.

I'm turning in now though, apologies if I don't respond again (sleeping tends to make me forget).

[Deleted]

The average dps swing of the specs. Not the absolute outlier cases. Which while can happen will not constitute 95% of your play. Using outliers as if they were is not correct.

Here is what I was looking at;

Outlaw = 75133.3 / 23.7%

Arms = 66834.8 / 18.8%

Feral = 41687.5 / 12.5%

Basically in 95% of cases that's the typical amount of variance you would expect. Arms being really not that far behind the king of gambling.

I'm turning in now though, apologies if I don't respond again (sleeping tends to make me forget).

Where are you pulling this number from?

They cant simulate the absolute outliter cases.

The absolute outlier would be getting nothing but the worst 1 buff roll throughout the entire fight which would most likely put you at the rock bottom of all dps.

These are actual simmed numbers that WILL happen sometimes. So they matter.

[TheRealTish]

CotD is bad with broadsides.

But wouldnt everything else you said be true with any buff except shark infested waters

Correct, broadsides and buried treasure=bad for cotdb. I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by everything else be true excluding shark infested water. if we're getting a single roll buff with a mythic geared group during burst we want shark, if it's a slow group we want true bearing.
Outside burst the rolls benefit us more depending on if we have adds and other situations. (I.e broadsides bad because if we are mfd sniping and that gives us 0 benefit, whereas shark in the water benefits us TONS while mfd sniping adds). All the buff comps have different situations where 1 buff is better than 2. 3 is normally better than anything. really all our decision making is done during 1 or 2 reroll decisions.

The differences between folks making the small changes based on buffs will probably be similar to the folks who pooled energy and bursted inside soul cap and weapon procs vs the folks that just spammed backstab and danced off cd. Not a HUGE difference, but enough to make a difference. I'm sure raid encounters will make a big deal too of course, all of this is based off our current 40-60 sec long fights lol

[Deleted]

Correct, broadsides and buried treasure=bad for cotdb. I'm sorry I don't understand what you mean by everything else be true excluding shark infested water. if we're getting a single roll buff with a mythic geared group during burst we want shark, if it's a slow group we want true bearing.
Outside burst the rolls benefit us more depending on if we have adds and other situations. (I.e broadsides bad because if we are mfd sniping and that gives us 0 benefit, whereas shark in the water benefits us TONS while mfd sniping adds). All the buff comps have different situations where 1 buff is better than 2. 3 is normally better than anything. really all our decision making is done during 1 or 2 reroll decisions.

The differences between folks making the small changes based on buffs will probably be similar to the folks who pooled energy and bursted inside soul cap and weapon procs vs the folks that just spammed backstab and danced off cd. Not a HUGE difference, but enough to make a difference. I'm sure raid encounters will make a big deal too of course, all of this is based off our current 40-60 sec long fights lol

My understanding is that you in most situations still want to roll for 2+ buffs. Yeah ofc you want something else then broadsides during CotB. But anything else just go for 2+.

[mikeezy]

I mean its not that far off from that honestly.

I was averaging like 186-200k on ST at 815 ilvl last night in heroics. Wasnt too bad.

It's not. I'm sure everyone here can break about 200k on a boss fight with a single buff. But there's a huge difference between playing WITH the single buff and playing AGAINST it. Sticking to a single buff and just playing through your normal rotation rather than spending your first 25-35 combo points re-rolling will obviously yield better results. Imo, many mythic bosses are not worth re-rolling for unless you get a GM buff.

[TheRealTish]

Agreed. Outside small random conditions (burn phase coming up with hero and you have 1 min on AR, it might be beneficial to maintain a single True Bearing to until AR is off cd) but generally outside of cd's I think the 2+ rule of thumb will hold true. The adjustments to ghostly strike and pistol shot usage are the important things that change based on buffs outside of cd's too.

[Smaxy]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up but..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1314953135

Tldr: barring any nerfs, relics that give Fatebringer or Fate's Thirst should be used over anything.

Personally, I got 2 850 and a 845 on Fortune's Strike, Fortune Strikes (terrible naming I know lol) and Fortune's Boon- with possible fixes coming and raiding so close, I'm not going to swap to lower iLVL relics but this will be something I'm monitoring going forward.

[Deleted]

Not sure if anyone has brought this up but..

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1314953135

Tldr: barring any nerfs, relics that give Fatebringer or Fate's Thirst should be used over anything.

Personally, I got 2 850 and a 845 on Fortune's Strike, Fortune Strikes (terrible naming I know lol) and Fortune's Boon- with possible fixes coming and raiding so close, I'm not going to swap to lower iLVL relics but this will be something I'm monitoring going forward.

I'm contemplating chainrunning heroics because right now i'm stuck with ilvl 840 black powder, ilvl 835 black powder and ilvl 840 Ghostly shell

[xero93]

Are those sims on simcraft right? Sitting a dummy for 5mins I can do ~210k with good rolls. How the fuck are we supposedly doing 254k min?

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My swing is more like 190-240. I don't see how 254 is min.

[Sephiroso]

Are those sims on simcraft right? Sitting a dummy for 5mins I can do ~210k with good rolls. How the fuck are we supposedly doing 254k min?

- - - Updated - - -

My swing is more like 190-240. I don't see how 254 is min.

Are you using RT solely with 6cp?

[xero93]

Are you using RT solely with 6cp?

Very rarely do I not finish with 6cp I either use a GS or PS to get to 6.

[Sephiroso]

Very rarely do I not finish with 6cp I either use a GS or PS to get to 6.

That might be one reason you're not seeing the dps the sims show. The only times I do 6cp is when I happen to land on 6cp from an extra SS, i land on 5 after SS and GS is running out, so i GS to 6, i land on 5 after SS and got an opportunity proc so i PS.

Any other scenario and i'm at 5cp, i RT at 5. Not worth the energy to PS without an opportunity proc just to get to 6cp imo, and the same with GS if your GS isn't going to get pandemic.

[Master Guns]

Are you indicating you are one of the "I can't break 180k because all I get are single rolls" folks? Playing outlaw competitively is completely about decision making. It's not just face roll rtb until 2+ buffs and spam run through. lol

Yet that's what every single fucking guide says to do.

[Sephiroso]

Yet that's what every single fucking guide says to do.

Simplified guides. Almost all of them have a caveat that says something like "But be aware of the fight duration" or something like that.

[Roiids]

Simplified guides. Almost all of them have a caveat that says something like "But be aware of the fight duration" or something like that.

Some buffs are good to burn AR + COTD together. Some aren't its really not that hard folks.

[Master Guns]

Simplified guides. Almost all of them have a caveat that says something like "But be aware of the fight duration" or something like that.

Literal, direct quote from Icy Veins:

. Ability Priority List

Activate Blade Flurry Icon Blade Flurry if more than one target is present and stacked.
Cast 5+ Combo Point Roll the Bones Icon Roll the Bones until you have at least 2 buffs.
Maintain Ghostly Strike Icon Ghostly Strike debuff if talented.
Activate Adrenaline Rush Icon Adrenaline Rush.
Activate Icon Curse of the Dreadblades.
Cast Marked for Death Icon Marked for Death (when talented) if you have 0-1 Combo Points.
Cast Death from Above Icon Death from Above (when talented) if you have 5+ Combo Points and Adrenaline Rush Icon Adrenaline Rush is not active.
Cast Run Through Icon Run Through at 5+ Combo Points.
Cast Pistol Shot Icon Pistol Shot if you have an Opportunity Icon Opportunity proc and you have 4 or less Combo Points.
Cast Saber Slash Icon Saber Slash to generate Combo Points.

Furthermore, at the bottom, it states:

The chance of receiving multiple buffs is as follows (taken from 1 million Roll the Bones Icon Roll the Bones casts in a simulation):

e
1 Roll the Bones Icon Roll the Bones Buff: 100.0% chance;
2 Roll the Bones Icon Roll the Bones Buffs: 35.4% chance;
3 Roll the Bones Icon Roll the Bones Buffs: 3.87% chance;
6 Roll the Bones Icon Roll the Bones Buffs: 1.54% chance.
The chance of receiving any of the 6 buffs individually on a Roll the Bones Icon Roll the Bones is the same — just slightly over 25% chance per buff (due to the chance of receiving multiple buffs).

Roll the Bones Icon Roll the Bones has significantly different gameplay implications than Slice and Dice Icon Slice and Dice had for Combat, or currently has for Outlaw. It is always worth recasting Roll the Bones Icon Roll the Bones until you have at least 2 active buffs.

The guide also says out of 1 million simulated rolls, the chance of getting a 6 roll RTB is 1.54%. Lol. You mother fuckers should play the lottery because there have been MANY people in this thread stating they get 6 rolls every fucking boss and that the RNG "isn't that bad". Lol.

[xero93]

That might be one reason you're not seeing the dps the sims show. The only times I do 6cp is when I happen to land on 6cp from an extra SS, i land on 5 after SS and GS is running out, so i GS to 6, i land on 5 after SS and got an opportunity proc so i PS.

Any other scenario and i'm at 5cp, i RT at 5. Not worth the energy to PS without an opportunity proc just to get to 6cp imo, and the same with GS if your GS isn't going to get pandemic.

I will try it out, because I actually agree with you. I was doing that before I saw people say finish with 6. I do think bad rolls are being down played in this thread tho. I don't see how you can recover even on a raid boss if you have to reroll 4+ times, multiple times, because you get fucked.

[Master Guns]

People are downplaying the FUCK out of bad rolls in this thread, acting like they get 6 buff rolls every boss and it's not that bad, shaming people for saying they have to reroll 5-6 times on a boss fight. It's laughable.

[Sephiroso]

People are downplaying the FUCK out of bad rolls in this thread, acting like they get 6 buff rolls every boss and it's not that bad, shaming people for saying they have to reroll 5-6 times on a boss fight. It's laughable.

You're just upplaying the times you get single rolls is all, and with current content, getting a single roll doesn't kill your dps