nerf incoming...

[Segus1992]

They better give me a full Artifact Power reset then because I picked WW as main because it was a strong 5man spec.

If they take that away there is very little reason to be WW.

It'll get a small nerf at best in 5 mans. Don't you worry about those.

[Tenant]

They better give me a full Artifact Power reset then because I picked WW as main because it was a strong 5man spec.

If they take that away there is very little reason to be WW.

Anyone picking a class/spec just because they are strong at one moment in time are setting themselves up for this sort of scenario every time. Honestly, it's a very thick-headed mindset to have.

[Deleted]

Anyone picking a class/spec just because they are strong at one moment in time are setting themselves up for this sort of scenario every time. Honestly, it's a very thick-headed mindset to have.

No it is not, it would be naive when you return and start new in an addon to blindly pick a class.

I could be a Shadow Priest right now if I did that.

[mitre27]

Main DH here, why can't we have higher AoE burst than our peers? Some have better ST, some have better maintained AOE, some better mobility etc etc, we all have strong points, why nerf our strong points without buffing our weaknesses.

[Vespian]

Main DH here, why can't we have higher AoE burst than our peers? Some have better ST, some have better maintained AOE, some better mobility etc etc, we all have strong points, why nerf our strong points without buffing our weaknesses.

Last time I checked, DH ST isn't exactly bad either oO

[Slappadappa]

WW and Havoc are so good at AoE that if you made a dungeon group with only those 3 as DPS you could do mythics like you do norms. They are vastly outperforming all other specs with it comes to both burst and sustained AoE. SCK will make up a large majority of your damage anyways, this nerf is justified and not even close to the end of the world.

[mitre27]

Last time I checked, DH ST isn't exactly bad either oO

Maybe not, but it's not great, my point is, our AoE burst is the ONLY thing we excel at, middle of the road at everything else.

[Khaduran]

There is so much L2P issues in this thread that makes me laugh. WW is fine and will continue to be fine even with an aoe nerf. Oh.. did I mention L2P?

[Tradu]

I meant monks, this is a monk forum. I just don't trust blizzard because they'll nerf Strike due to how much it excels at AE/Cleave but they won't do anything to make up for the single target damage loss where monk is already middle of the pack.

And this is why Blizzard insisting on making nearly every ability used on ST also do AoE and/or cleave is just continuing the balancing mess that was SEF/ChiEx in WoD. There is absolutely nothing surprising about this.
Having distinct abilities for ST and multitarget makes it much easier for them to balance the different aspects independently, and them once again going against that fact(especially on WW) is just mindboggling.

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Maybe not, but it's not great, my point is, our AoE burst is the ONLY thing we excel at, middle of the road at everything else.

The degree to which Havoc excels at burst AoE(which is a very important aspect in both 5mans and raids) is just absurd, though, which is the issue.

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Anyone picking a class/spec just because they are strong at one moment in time are setting themselves up for this sort of scenario every time. Honestly, it's a very thick-headed mindset to have.

Especially if it's WW at the start of an expansion(or really anything at the start of an expansion)

[Vespian]

Maybe not, but it's not great, my point is, our AoE burst is the ONLY thing we excel at, middle of the road at everything else.

I'm an 843 Warlock and I'm actually middle of the road. You're nowhere near middle of the road. DH are currently being mentioned in the same sentence as Rogues and that's not to pinpoint a difference. You're fine. There are classes, or specs of classes, that are not fine.

[Deleted]

Rogues are defintitely better on single target.

And Demonhunters are better on AOE than WW the longer the the fight goes. WW spikes on AOE pulls that are between 4-6 seconds.

[Deleted]

WW and Havoc are so good at AoE that if you made a dungeon group with only those 3 as DPS you could do mythics like you do norms. They are vastly outperforming all other specs with it comes to both burst and sustained AoE. SCK will make up a large majority of your damage anyways, this nerf is justified and not even close to the end of the world.

True - funny thing is that Hunters have had this role for the entire MoP/WoD period. Nothing was done here. There is a reason people would bring 2 or even 3 BM hunters in CM runs.

I get that DH/WW looks insanely strong atm. What is unfortunte is that Blizzard is using the current content as a base for their classbalances.
Classbalances based on 5 man content 2 weeks into the expansion is dangerous since we might see the scenario again where WW dps wont be seen as part of the roster in endgame guilds at all (exactly what they did to them in WoD).
The current 5-man content is the perfect match to WW/DH dps since the trashpacks and even the bosses dies in no time. Alot will chance when we move into raids and highend mythic+ due to more HP on everything = longer fights.
Classes with less snap-AoE and more rampup time will do alot better.

Again - I get that WW looks strong atm. but I kinda liked that we had some other classes than mage/rogue/hunter top tier.
The playstyle of WW is amazing and they did such a good job here. It would be sad if they make it none competetive.

I mained my WW back in WoD and saw 3 x nerfs within 2 weeks.
This timed I dared to try again since I LOVE the class/spec - luckily I leveled my mage on the side since Blizzard insists on mages to be top tier - always.

Lets see how the nerfs will look. I really hope that I can see my WW as my main thrueout the entire expansion.

#fingers crossed!

[Sesethi]

Bye FotM rerollers, don't let the door hit ya on the way out. I heard mages and rogues are a fine place to travel this time of the year (like all the time tbh), have fun there!

[Deleted]

Just my 2 cents about the ww nerf or any class nerf.
I understand our class might be overtuned in AOE, i think we are ok in ST but i agree an 8-min fight against a raid boss is not the same as a 1-min fight.
I always wonder the same thing, what is beta testing for? roll and FSK not working properly a lot of times, and they have to fix the classes because they were unable to achieve balance BEFORE they released the game.
I do not think the nerf it is gonna be that important, but it is the same, i am fed up of the uncapability of these people of releasing the game with the classes already balanced, maybe they have to leave behind unobtainable goals, such as trying to provide balance and class fantasy at the same time; at this point i would rather have homogeneisation without constant on live buffs/nerfs, specially in an expansion such as legion, where playing an alt it is gonna be more inconvinient than before.

[Deleted]

Bye FotM rerollers, don't let the door hit ya on the way out. I heard mages and rogues are a fine place to travel this time of the year (like all the time tbh), have fun there!

Well said.

[Statix]

Strike of the Windlord does deal ridiculous damage. Most of the time, I don't even need it to be top damage on trash. But, it just gives such an amazing rush to be the spec that has the best AoE burst in the game. Why can't we have that?

Our single target DPS is nothing special. Strike of the Windlord serves its purpose on single target. By the time Fists of Fury, Strike of the Windlord and Whirling Dragon Punch are on cooldown, our DPS starts to drop off quickly. Strike of the Windlord always brings you up a bit again. Without that, we'll just continue dropping on the damage meter.

It took me months to decide which class I wanted to play. Even leveled my Mage to 104 before finally going Monk. I just hope that this nerf doesn't ruin the entire spec for me. Blizzard has a track record of nerfing classes too hard.

I don't understand why balance updates aren't released more frequently, like they are with Heroes of the Storm, for example. There's more than enough data and it really doesn't have to be complicated. I get the impression that the Blizzard devs are just lazy and/or are biased towards certain classes. Why else completely screw Death Knight's mobility while other classes have fucktons of it. In the meantime, my Death Knight doesn't feel powerful at all when I do finally reach my target, something they said a Death Knight should be; powerful when you do get close.

A lot of the time, I just get the idea Blizzard is talking out of their ass. As with the removal of flying. It's just them being lazy. The lack of content in WoD is more proof of this. Learn from the teams behind Heroes of the Storm, Hearthstone and Overwatch. You get the idea that the teams behind those games still have a passion for it, releasing new content frequently and actually working on balancing their game.

It's very refreshing to see OP heroes dealth with in Heroes of the Storm and weak heroes to be buffed accordingly. This probably comes from the tournaments that are being done. The game needs to be balanced for them. We really don't have anything like that in WoW.

[Deleted]

It's very refreshing to see OP heroes dealth with in Heroes of the Storm and weak heroes to be buffed accordingly. This probably comes from the tournaments that are being done. The game needs to be balanced for them. We really don't have anything like that in WoW.

How long does it take to change your "main" in those games?, because if alt swapping would be instant in wow, i have the feeling classes would be much better balanced at every time.

[Jaigar]

Sotw is a bit crazy, but blizzard doesnt have a good history of even headed nerfs

[Interim]

How is being high on cleave damage a pointless thing, when m+ is such a large part of the game? Why did bm hunters get beast cleave nerfs then when MM was clearly superior in raids xD.

Regardless I really hope you aren't using sims which aren't even playing properly to justify your point about average ST. I've played with other op ST classes, and never felt that my dps was lacking, and this is the same with the windwalkers in my guild.

Cleave damage isn't even all that spectacular over time. Not sure why the monkeys can't understand "burst" and 10-30 second trash packs.

As for the idea sims aren't playing properly - I love that this silly idea:misinfo is so prevalent amongst plebbers. Sims are ran based off an APL pulled directly from game and tuned by minds so much bigger than yours or mine in math. Ironically I've played ww since the beginning, have a plethora of single digit rankings, raid with a top 100 guild, and at current sims are pretty much hitting my dps on the head. I imagine marginally higher considering the limited/short fights:

This puts ww at... Average pre nerf.

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I've spoken to windwalkers who actually do work for the sim (at least I think he does), and he told me the sims are easily missing 20k dps. That would mean WW is very close to the top of ST dps, so saying above average probably isn't the best word for it.

Anyway, they could just make strike of the windlord split like old FoF did.

Ok I lol'd

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20k? What? We're talking about 300-400k dps ST by nighthold, who cares about 20k? How can you sit here and talk to me about tuning when trash dies in under 20 seconds and boss fights last a minute. Obviously when a fight lasts 60 seconds whomever has the best burst (ww) or best buff cd (dh) is going to top the meter. DH are in meta for half the entire boss fight. It's pointless to even judge dps now. I 100% guarantee WW burst isn't going to mean anything on 8-10 min raid bosses in EN. This entire convo is pointless.

Mah babes are still here for the takin!

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and so it begins. WoD all over again.

^
/10characters

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How about you quit the game? I hear that's the most mindless OP thing there is.

WW was/is out of control, people thinking it'd continue are stupid as fuck.

/Monk main

I was with ya until the out of control bit. Shortsighted at best - but ignorant really.

Unless you meant in the context of 1 shotting meaningless trash - then I'm with ya.

As for it continuing, yea I imagined so considering rogues do what I do but better. Demon hunters do what I do but better. Arms warriors make me sadface.

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I'm an 843 Warlock and I'm actually middle of the road. You're nowhere near middle of the road. DH are currently being mentioned in the same sentence as Rogues and that's not to pinpoint a difference. You're fine. There are classes, or specs of classes, that are not fine.

Last I checked demo locks were one of the top st classes period. Like top 5. Think monks are like 13th?

[Icecat]

Are you guys serious about these nerfs? I mean, I was dreading them as much as the rest of you because I play Windwalker and love the spec and have been 100% monk since MoP... but only an idiot or seriously selfish person could not admit that there was a serious problem. I am 830 item level and I absolutely destroy every other class on the meters - be it trash pack or even single target boss fight. This shit was in a dire need of a nerf because I am routinely 40% of the DPS on a single trash pack. Is that fun for everyone? That's like... it's kind of fun for me but not really? I want the game to be balanced and I also don't want my precious monk baby to be flavor of the month because of one goddamn button because I'm hipster trash.

Really, Strike of the Windlord doesn't even need to be in the game at all. I can't wrap my head around why they even added it to monk's repertoire when we already had very strong sustained AoE and were in no shortage of buttons. This SotWL nerf might affect my overall DPS by a whopping 15-20%, but I'm absolutely okay with that. I'm already able to pull the world and one shot everything without using any of my stuns or defensive cooldowns so it's not like that quality of life thing will change all too much. I don't get why people are saying that WW is still middle of the pack when it comes to single target as well. I'm incredibly strong and still on top 99% of the time. If the only thing they nerf is the SotW AoE component, we'd still be in a fantastic situation.

Let me be crystal clear to the non-monk players. Even with my clones and Fists of Fury/Rising Sun Kick/Whirling Dragon Punch/Spinning Crane Kick rotation on a trash pack, I climb to the top immediately and am there throughout. Strike of the Windlord is completely fucking pointless and its addition is just gratuitious. The fact that it also happens to be a widespread attack of like immense 90% of any enemies' healthpool is obvious proof to me that no one at Blizzard even played a WW during beta.

Oh also, for those who jumped to WW because they were overpowered and are upset about rerolling... you kinda had this coming? Roll a Mage, Rogue, or Hunter if you want high damage because anything above them is a huge design flaw in Blizzard's eyes and this is well documented. Use your head.