Warlocks been destroyed by new nerf in PTR

[Gaidax]

Well yeah, if you're going to ignore their most important talent, sure, Shadow Priest might be worse than Demo. Besides, Shadow Priest needs just as much attention as Warlocks, so even if Demo performs better than them, that's still meaningless.

Not ignoring it, you are NOT going to sit in S2M 24/7. And basically yes both of them need attention, but don't say silly stuff like Shadow is more valuable than anything that Warlocks bring to the table, it's just not true, simply because Warlocks have 3 specs which ARE giving it plenty of valuable stuff that Spriests simply do not have - Destruction only has plenty of things that are very valuable that Spriests simply don't have.

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Want to know more? He cleaves 2 target harder than destro can

I find this very hard to believe.

[Rayaleith]

Drain life wasn't on my destro / demo bars for the last 2 xpacs.

It's in no way a core part of those specs kit or fantasy, I'd much rather have some form of ember tap back for destro and demo already has soul link.

Ok I can understand this. You did not use this spell. Still. I think it has its uses and I really use it sometimes at WQ quests, since I can drain (seldom but I do) while roaring-blazed immmo can still do damage. The question is, why touch it? I mean, it has been there since day 1 of warlock existence and it is VERY iconic. They kept Life Tap that suits warlocks' fantasy and want to remove drain life from 2/3 specs? We are talking about drain life! THE iconic spell.

I'd like someone from Blizzard to explain what they really think about warlocks or even the design philosophy, since Mr Hatzikostas was saying things a few days ago that are not according to what we see now. We need someone that actually knows what is going on. I like the guy but it seems like he is not updated. Are we tanky? Are we turrets? Are we semi mobile? Not mobile? What are we and what are they thoughts? They maybe want time for this, ok. But not this shit. Why would touch drain life. I mean... Is this the problem here?

[Draxtor]

Yes because Shadow Priest is so mobile, do you know what happens when they have to move during Void Form and are not in S2M? It's not pleasant.

But well really we will just see it soon anyway. One advantage Spriest has over Demo is that main spriests will have artifact pumped up, while there are much less main Demo players on the other hand.

They use Disperson so all of their Insanity stays exactly where it is?

[Gaidax]

They use Disperson so all of their Insanity stays exactly where it is?

It's a bloody three min CD and 2.5 after artifact bonus? Don't get me started on all the complaints that brought in Beta where priests had to pop their only survivability CD to not lose sanity on the move.

It's as if I would tell you Demo has no problems with mobility by saying "well just gap GCDs with Summon Doomguard and Grimoire of Service".

[crazyman2]

The thing about the talent swap is that we straight up asked for more mobility and the expense of the survivability, and that is exactly what we received. Be careful what you wish for.

I still don't like the changes one bit, because I don't demonic circle is all that great (and is still next to useless when you get jumped in the world), and the loss of either one of the defensive talents is enough to go from mediocre to squishy. We were getting torn up by monks and rogues before this, and it's only going to hurt this worse.

We did ask for this, but this class is already in a bad spot and this is going to make it even worse.

The general response to this makes me think that the devs feel warlock "power" is fine and isn't going to give us any buffs without nerfing something else, and I'm thinking it's time to abandon ship.

[Draxtor]

It's a bloody three min CD and 2.5 after artifact bonus? Don't get me started on all the complaints that brought in Beta where priests had to pop their only survivability CD to not lose sanity on the move.

It's as if I would tell you Demo has no problems with mobility by saying "well just gap GCDs with Summon Doomguard and Grimoire of Service".

Its a 2 minute CD, and goes down to 1.5 min (that's a mere 90 seconds) after artifact traits. And no, it isn't like saying use Doomguard or Service since those are 2 entirely different things. It would be as if Unending Resolve made it so your pet's timers didn't go down during it's duration, which is the closest Demo can get to the function Dispersion serves.

Oh and let me remind you, if the talent swap goes live and we have to choose between Demon Skin and Dark Pact we will also most likely have 1 defensive CD as well in the form of Undying Resolve. So considering Spriests have the option to pop Dispersion as both an offensive and a defensive option, and warlocks can only use it defensively, I'd say they are two completely different things.

[Gaidax]

The thing about the talent swap is that we straight up asked for more mobility and the expense of the survivability, and that is exactly what we received. Be careful what you wish for.

I still don't like the changes one bit, because I don't demonic circle is all that great (and is still next to useless when you get jumped in the world), and the loss of either one of the defensive talents is enough to go from mediocre to squishy. We were getting torn up by monks and rogues before this, and it's only going to hurt this worse.

We did ask for this, but this class is already in a bad spot and this is going to make it even worse.

The general response to this makes me think that the devs feel warlock "power" is fine and isn't going to give us any buffs without nerfing something else, and I'm thinking it's time to abandon ship.

I can agree with that, sort of. I too like Demon Skin and Dark Pact combo.

But then, in raids it will realistically change little - Soul Leech will be stacked anyway because you DPS shit anyway so for raids it is a buff IMO. Where it is a nerf is casual PvE/questing and such.

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Its a 2 minute CD, and goes down to 1.5 min (that's a mere 90 seconds) after artifact traits. And no, it isn't like saying use Doomguard or Service since those are 2 entirely different things. It would be as if Unending Resolve made it so your pet's timers didn't go down during it's duration, which is the closest Demo can get to the function Dispersion serves.

Oh and let me remind you, if the talent swap goes live and we have to choose between Demon Skin and Dark Pact we will also most likely have 1 defensive CD as well in the form of Undying Resolve. So considering Spriests have the option to pop Dispersion as both an offensive and a defensive option, and warlocks can only use it defensively, I'd say they are two completely different things.

Let me remind you, in raids you do not need Demon Skin because you bloody DPS things and stack Soul Leech anyway. For raiding it is a buff because you take minor survivability hit, while getting mobility (or cc whatever encounter needs) increase. You will still take Dark Pact for raids and you won't feel not having Demon Skin, simply because you will be DPSing and stacking Soul Leech anyway, so you end up with like 5% less shield and no functional difference otherwise unless there is some very long no damage phase, which is kinda rare.

Basically all they did is make warlocks not take Demon Skin and instead take Dark Pact/Teleport or Dark Pact/Shadowfury.

Where it IS bad is cases where you do not sustain DPS like questing and random outdoor content. There it sucks a bit more.

[Meggle]

Ok I can understand this. You did not use this spell. Still. I think it has its uses and I really use it sometimes at WQ quests, since I can drain (seldom but I do) while roaring-blazed immmo can still do damage. The question is, why touch it? I mean, it has been there since day 1 of warlock existence and it is VERY iconic. They kept Life Tap that suits warlocks' fantasy and want to remove drain life from 2/3 specs? We are talking about drain life! THE iconic spell.

I'd like someone from Blizzard to explain what they really think about warlocks or even the design philosophy, since Mr Hatzikostas was saying things a few days ago that are not according to what we see now. We need someone that actually knows what is going on. I like the guy but it seems like he is not updated. Are we tanky? Are we turrets? Are we semi mobile? Not mobile? What are we and what are they thoughts? They maybe want time for this, ok. But not this shit. Why would touch drain life. I mean... Is this the problem here?

I frequently use drain life as destro while pet tanking/soling gold dragon WQs. I would be pretty annoyed at losing it.

[Baconeggcheese]

It's a bloody three min CD and 2.5 after artifact bonus? Don't get me started on all the complaints that brought in Beta where priests had to pop their only survivability CD to not lose sanity on the move.

You only really start losing insanity if you have to delay a mind blast, void bolt / SW: D are instant and SW:P generates insanity on cast which you can just spam if need be on movement. Early on in the alpha when the dots didn't generate any insanity it was a huge point of contention, now its really not a huge deal.

I clearly don't agree with the sky is falling people, if I learned anything from my performance during alpha / beta raid testing locks are gonna be just dandy and we're likely going to get buffed soon as well. But putting spriests on the same level as ele / rets right now is a bit of a stretch, which is why these people are clinging so much to that part of the comment.

[Deleted]

The thing about the talent swap is that we straight up asked for more mobility and the expense of the survivability, and that is exactly what we received. Be careful what you wish for..

A poor man's Blink is not mobility, mobility is being able to do things whilst moving. A teleport to a pre-cast fixed position changes nothing about being an immobile turret.

In the Q&A they stated that the design philosophy was lack of mobility in exchange for tankiness, i.e. you don;t need to move from the fire, you survive it.

They have lowered tankiness in exchange for very little.

It renders PVP that bi tmore hideous too, not that everyone hasn;t got the burst to melt straight through our Dark Pact and shield and healthpol whilst laughing at DOTs that might kill them..in ten minutes.

[Cyclone Duke]

Oh man I am going to miss burning rush while questing (need fel armor) and going to miss fel armor while in dungeons (need dark pact)
But hey I guess I'll always have shadowfury for mythics now since the other two in that row are bad.

[TriHard]

Angry face to show how angry I am!

[Draxtor]

Let me remind you, in raids you do not need Demon Skin because you bloody DPS things and stack Soul Leech anyway. For raiding it is a buff because you take minor survivability hit, while getting mobility (or cc whatever encounter needs) increase. You will still take Dark Pact for raids and you won't feel not having Demon Skin, simply because you will be DPSing and stacking Soul Leech anyway, so you end up with like 5% less shield and no functional difference otherwise unless there is some very long no damage phase, which is kinda rare.

Basically all they did is make warlocks not take Demon Skin and instead take Dark Pact/Teleport or Dark Pact/Shadowfury.

Where it IS bad is cases where you do not sustain DPS like questing and random outdoor content. There it sucks a bit more.

You missed my entire main point and focused on one sentence. Did I say we needed extra defensives? No, that was in response to you saying spriests weren't happy about their one defendive could be used offensively.

I guess you gave up trying to compare Dispersion's mobility function to Service and Doomguard because you realized theyre in no way related?

[Gaidax]

You missed my entire main point and focused on one sentence. Did I say we needed extra defensives? No, that was in response to you saying spriests weren't happy about their one defendive could be used offensively.

I guess you gave up trying to compare Dispersion's mobility function to Service and Doomguard because you realized theyre in no way related?

More like I gave up on people who think that Spriests have some exceptional mobility because of bloody survivability CD?

You completely do not understand what I mean, but well, I am really done trying to explain just how this is related. You can reread 5 times, maybe it will help to understand the meaning behind the comparison.

The point is simple - Spriest mobility is AS shit as Demo and even worse actually. Dispersion itself was changed in beta because it made Spriest life even more miserable when they used it, as you can't really DPS while it's up and their insanity would run out. Not being able to frikkin DPS when it's up is not making it some sort of mobility DPS, all it does it can be smartly used to stall insanity decay while it lasts in hopes benefit will outweight the loss of not being able to do shit while it's up AND being able to move while Voidform is running out. That's all.

[mhdoe]

I play a lock and the only problem I see is people looking for reasons to complain.

[pkm]

I play a lock and the only problem I see is people looking for reasons to complain.

Well yeah I mean if you're a lock that just does heroic 5 mans then you aren't going to know the class properly to see the problems.

[Draxtor]

More like I gave up on people who think that Spriests have some exceptional mobility because of bloody survivability CD?

You completely do not understand what I mean, but well, I am really done trying to explain just how this is related. You can reread 5 times, maybe it will help to understand the meaning behind the comparison.

The point is simple - Spriest mobility is AS shit as Demo and even worse actually. Dispersion itself was changed in beta because it made Spriest life even more miserable when they used it, as you can't really DPS while it's up and their insanity would run out. Not being able to frikkin DPS when it's up is not making it some sort of mobility DPS, all it does it can be smartly used to stall insanity decay while it lasts in hopes benefit will outweight the loss of not being able to do shit while it's up AND being able to move while Voidform is running out. That's all.

1. You just tried to claim spriest mobility is worst than Demo. Every spriest in my guild is laughing at you right now.
2. Dispersion is a great mobility tool, whether you accept it or not. Its not a case of "I can't dps while up therefore it's shit" case like youre trying to claim it is. Spriests spec allows them to gain a stacking haste buff the longer they're in Voidform. Dots generate insanity. Dispersing and repositioning allows your haste to keep stacking up, whike keeping Voidform dots ticking, and stopping insanity drain while allowing Mind Blast and Voidbolt to come off CD.

Not being able to dps while it's up does not make it "miserabe to use." Hunters can't dps with turtle up and mages can't dps with block up.

[Cempa]

My main issue with portal is how its designed -as in needs a cancel macro.

#showtooltip Demonic Circle
/cancelaura Demonic Circle
/cast Demonic Circle

[Deleted]

Losing Demon Skin a more than mere 5% loss if we can keep DPSing.
As long as it doesn't constantly reach its cap, it's effectively a 1% per second effective health heal as well. Over the course of a raid encounter it's quite a lot of health. Over a million per minute in fact, just to put it in perspective. In two minutes, it's well over a full health bar. Superfluous explanation, I know, but still.

Then again, it may just convert overhealing into actual healing and it won't make a bit of difference in the end. Just saying it's not just a 5% shield loss...

Looking forward to being able to use Demonic Circle though. I'm not its biggest fan, but hey - it can be really strong in certain situations.

[Draxtor]

Losing Demon Skin a more than mere 5% loss if we can keep DPSing.
As long as it doesn't constantly reach its cap, it's effectively a 1% per second effective health heal as well. Over the course of a raid encounter it's quite a lot of health. Over a million per minute in fact, just to put it in perspective. In two minutes, it's well over a full health bar. Superfluous explanation, I know, but still.

Then again, it may just convert overhealing into actual healing and it won't make a bit of difference in the end. Just saying it's not just a 5% shield loss...

Looking forward to being able to use Demonic Circle though. I'm not its biggest fan, but hey - it can be really strong in certain situations.

Get out of here with that logic man, everybody knows Warlocks are just crying about everything we are such babies.

But in all seriousness, a passive shield for a percentage of your max health that constantly regenerates will almost always be stronger than a 1 minute CD, except in specific fights where you soak a mechanic. Most of the shield from Dark Pact is wasted anyways, as Demo I get a shield over 1 million health. That will only ever be used in its full capacity when soaking/cheesing mechanics.