Odyn and Thorim : How powerful are they really?

[Deleted]

Odyn says : My power is beyond anything you have yet faced! And Thorim's power is said to have been invoked once, and that it turned a whole continent into dust. It is said that he is extremelly powerful.

Are the Keepers that powerful though, really? Because if they are, why the hell were they hiding inside Ulduar for so long since the moment we freed them? Only Thorim and Hodir answered to Odyn's call. But still...they seem to be so weak. Hodir managed to got himself captured and we had to go and rescue him. As a warrior you can summon Thorim to help you in combat. He is supposed to be a god though, I don't like how weak he seems to be when compared to us, the player.

They are literally gods with the power of the Titans inside them, and they were hiding inside Ulduar instead of unleashing their full powers upon the Burning Legion or any other big enemy that threats Azeroth. It's their job, it's the reason they got created in the first place. I couldn't help but laugh when as a hunter you go and find Thorim sitting at his throne in Storm Peaks while Azeroth's destruction is at hand. He even looked to be bored.
I'll give Odyn a pass because he is locked inside the Halls of Valor.

Also, is Thorim really Odyn's son? How is that possible?

[Combatbutler]

Titanic watchers have a history of utter incompetence, the moment the titans left them be and because they didn't do their jobs the world is in the chaotic state, with lesser races doing their job. Some of them a are quite strong, comparable to fully powered aspects I'd say, but ultimately squander that power.

And on Odyn in particular he screwed up more than most titanic watchers, more or less enslaving an entire race and he got away with it too. The vrykul originally found the whole idea of serving after death abhorrent, but Odyn influenced their culture and enslaved those who opposed him and basically turned the entire Vrykul people in one giant cult of the damned that can't wait to join his undead army.

[TriHard]

We'll see in 7.1 But they don't really seem that powerful tbh.

[Enthralled]

Also, is Thorim really Odyn's son? How is that possible?

Odyn likes to use that language a lot. He claimed Helya as his daughter (even though she really wasn't) until things went south.

I believe that since he was the Prime Designate before things soured (and because he's based on the Norse Odin, the All-father), he simply has fatherly feelings for all the others.

[themengsk176]

Blizzard is saving them for something big. There's a reason all of them in Ulduar survived. I bet they play a big role in the next Old God themed expansion.

[Shadowspire]

Blizzard is saving them for something big. There's a reason all of them in Ulduar survived. I bet they play a big role in the next Old God themed expansion.

I also find it ironic that just enough of them are alive to house the pantheon souls. I think if hey don't die, ra den or wrathion will tell them and they'll work on a way to sacrifice themselves or unlock the power the Titans had to become literally gods and take up the mantle the Titans left.

[Shelly]

Titanic watchers have a history of utter incompetence, the moment the titans left them be and because they didn't do their jobs the world is in the chaotic state, with lesser races doing their job. Some of them a are quite strong, comparable to fully powered aspects I'd say, but ultimately squander that power.

And on Odyn in particular he screwed up more than most titanic watchers, more or less enslaving an entire race and he got away with it too. The vrykul originally found the whole idea of serving after death abhorrent, but Odyn influenced their culture and enslaved those who opposed him and basically turned the entire Vrykul people in one giant cult of the damned that can't wait to join his undead army.

I'd like to see the source on that.

My general impression is that the Vrykul are only able to really escape the curse of flesh by ascending to the ranks of the Valarjar.

Anyway, Odyn buggered off at some point and left Loken in charge. Loken got all wibbly-wobbly on the old god juice and instigated a crazy civil war that released old god minions from Ulduar but also manipulated Thorim into thinking Hodir had killed his wife Syf which started the war between Vrykul and Frost Giants. During the fight Tyr left - possibly to find Odyn and tell him to get his shit together - but ended up dying to that old god general and forcing the critter into stasis. The vrykul that accompanied Tyr then created a tomb for him and an order - that eventually became paladins because Blizzard needed to do something to make the order more than 40 years old - to watch over the tomb. Thoradrim somehow got in and died leaving his sword there, we heroes come along later and get the sword, leave enough old god juice to be sucked into a crazy dagger which releases a rip in the void, but fortunately the tomb is then buried by some paladins reclaiming Tyr's hammer.

Meanwhile Odyn somehow screwed up his relationship with Helya (hoping that's explained a bit more in my artifact research) and got himself cursed and locked into his halls - although he can still leave in the form of a Vrykul shaman named Havi.

Later on the LK comes along and perverts the death cult of Odyn into a death cult for himself. Although by that time the Vrykul of Northrend and the Vrykul of the Broken Isles had gone down fairly different cultural roads (but not too different.)

Anyway, the reason they are so out of it is because gameplay mostly. But if you're looking for specific reasons Loken couldn't fully release Yogg from her prison despite being the prime designate. Odyn was locked up. Thorim was being a wimp grieving. Hodir was pissed off at everyone. And as far as Mimiron and Freyja go, well, who knows.

So yeah, they are powerful but they are also limited and while they may be immune to the curse of flesh they - like almost every powerful creature in the game - is very much susceptible to mental manipulation. We say that from the keepers, to the aspects, to the dragonflights themselves.

And finally don't confuse game balance with their relational fictional power. (But yeah, it does seem weird that we even get godly creatures as followers.)

[Shadowspire]

I'd like to see the source on that.

My general impression is that the Vrykul are only able to really escape the curse of flesh by ascending to the ranks of the Valarjar.

Anyway, Odyn buggered off at some point and left Loken in charge. Loken got all wibbly-wobbly on the old god juice and instigated a crazy civil war that released old god minions from Ulduar but also manipulated Thorim into thinking Hodir had killed his wife Syf which started the war between Vrykul and Frost Giants. During the fight Tyr left - possibly to find Odyn and tell him to get his shit together - but ended up dying to that old god general and forcing the critter into stasis. The vrykul that accompanied Tyr then created a tomb for him and an order - that eventually became paladins because Blizzard needed to do something to make the order more than 40 years old - to watch over the tomb. Thoradrim somehow got in and died leaving his sword there, we heroes come along later and get the sword, leave enough old god juice to be sucked into a crazy dagger which releases a rip in the void, but fortunately the tomb is then buried by some paladins reclaiming Tyr's hammer.

Meanwhile Odyn somehow screwed up his relationship with Helya (hoping that's explained a bit more in my artifact research) and got himself cursed and locked into his halls - although he can still leave in the form of a Vrykul shaman named Havi.

Later on the LK comes along and perverts the death cult of Odyn into a death cult for himself. Although by that time the Vrykul of Northrend and the Vrykul of the Broken Isles had gone down fairly different cultural roads (but not too different.)

Anyway, the reason they are so out of it is because gameplay mostly. But if you're looking for specific reasons Loken couldn't fully release Yogg from her prison despite being the prime designate. Odyn was locked up. Thorim was being a wimp grieving. Hodir was pissed off at everyone. And as far as Mimiron and Freyja go, well, who knows.

So yeah, they are powerful but they are also limited and while they may be immune to the curse of flesh they - like almost every powerful creature in the game - is very much susceptible to mental manipulation. We say that from the keepers, to the aspects, to the dragonflights themselves.

And finally don't confuse game balance with their relational fictional power. (But yeah, it does seem weird that we even get godly creatures as followers.)

Most of this is accurate but a few things.

Odyn didn't give loken shit, he did bugger off as u put it after all of them decided to give the aspects their powers. He and helya took a chunk of ulduar and placed it in the heavens, odyn then wanted to make an immortal uncorrupted Ray incase shit got real, and that's when he decided the ppl to do the choosing of worthy fights would be the. Valkyr, hely disagree so odyn killed her and forced her to do his bidding for millienia.

Loken in the meantime was slowly being corrupted by yoggsaron but banging sif kept that at bay until she decided to be loyal and stop, loken killed her by mistake, pinned it on hodir and then started to snatch up his friends while they were fighting each other. He also hacked the forge of wills and made fake history disk after tyr, archaadeas and ironya escaped his insane plan to rewrite his actions. During all this he also spoke to helya, telling her he'd free her from odyns grasp if she locked odyn and his army in HoV , so he wouldn't interfere. Helya agreed, loken rewrote history and odyn could do nothing but watch as time passed him by.

[Arrashi]

While thorim seems to be pretty decent guy with "POWAH OF THUNDAH", odin seems on completely new level with his powers of basement attic dwelling manchild. No but seriously, they are nothing special and during his encounter odin is just bullshitting.

[Tenjen]

Most of this is accurate but a few things.

Odyn didn't give loken shit, he did bugger off as u put it after all of them decided to give the aspects their powers. He and helya took a chunk of ulduar and placed it in the heavens, odyn then wanted to make an immortal uncorrupted Ray incase shit got real, and that's when he decided the ppl to do the choosing of worthy fights would be the. Valkyr, hely disagree so odyn killed her and forced her to do his bidding for millienia.

Loken in the meantime was slowly being corrupted by yoggsaron but banging sif kept that at bay until she decided to be loyal and stop, loken killed her by mistake, pinned it on hodir and then started to snatch up his friends while they were fighting each other. He also hacked the forge of wills and made fake history disk after tyr, archaadeas and ironya escaped his insane plan to rewrite his actions. During all this he also spoke to helya, telling her he'd free her from odyns grasp if she locked odyn and his army in HoV , so he wouldn't interfere. Helya agreed, loken rewrote history and odyn could do nothing but watch as time passed him by.

out of all the stuff in the chronicle which just shines and glows, i find how they handled the sif, loken and thorim thing to be painful. infidelity is such an overused and trite plot element. They could have gone any number of original ways, like Loken just going full straight up asshole.

[Shadowspire]

out of all the stuff in the chronicle which just shines and glows, i find how they handled the sif, loken and thorim thing to be painful. infidelity is such an overused and trite plot element. They could have gone any number of original ways, like Loken just going full straight up asshole.

I think so far that's been blizzard first infidelity plot, it's a really really big event, but yeah it's so far the only one.

[Combatbutler]

I'd like to see the source on that.
My general impression is that the Vrykul are only able to really escape the curse of flesh by ascending to the ranks of the Valarjar.

Originally the vrykul didn't want to be returned from death, helya tried to talk him out of it and Odyn promptly killed her, then turned her into the first valkyr and enslaved her, sending her out to do the same to the opposition and now look at the vrykul today all eager to join his little army and serve forever, while the first generation it was offered to was horrified.

[Solonar]

Well, look at it this way.
The Titans themselves were too powerful to handle the Old Gods on Azeroth, because Aman'thul tore Y'Shaarj out and ripped him to shreds like a wet paper - however it also created a gaping wound where the Well of Eternity would be. The original one, not the one Illidan created.

Because of that, they realized they'd do more harm than good so they made the Keepers. Freya, Mimiron, Tyr, Thorim, Hodir, Odyn, Loken, Archaedas and Ra-Den. They battled the Elemental Lords that were subjugated by the Old Gods, made the Elemental Plane to lock them away and then took the battle to the Old Gods themselves with their armies and imprisoned them, with Yogg-Saron putting up the best and final fight. After this, Archaedas and Mimiron made the Forge of Wills and Forge of Origination to soothe and nurture the world soul of Azeroth.

These beings fought and overcame the threat of the Old Gods in their physical manifestations, where they were literal mountains of flesh. The Old Gods however are much more insidious than that and are more of a threat when they're in their current forms (at least I personally think they are). They are most definitely powerful but I would take some of their stories with a grain of salt.
Remember that history tends to boast a little bit too much about legendary heroes or individuals and their deeds. Mouth to mouth also blows up the performances into things that were never the case. When Brann says Thorim's power being invoked turned a whole continent to dust I see that as being stories meant to make him look more powerful than he really is. At the same time, we beat the crap out of them. We beat the crap out of Ra-Den who had the shit beaten out of him by Lei Shen and we beat Lei Shen as well who had both the power of Ra-Den and a portion of Aman'thul's.

As for Odyn and his relationship with Thorim, he considers both Thorim AND Loken his actual sons, while Tyr as his brother. Not in a sense of "my brother in battle" but as actual blood-related, same for Thorim and Loken. It could just be a part of his programming by the Titans that he considers them related to him (why, don't know but eh... Thorim-Thor, Loken-Loki, Odyn the All-Father, doesn't take a genius to see the reference). Helya was more of a surrogate daughter that he ended up pissing off by forcing her into becoming the first Val'kyr.

[Felfaadaern Darkterror]

They are potentially way more powerful than they appear at the moment. The were created as keepers but have since become homes to Pantheon (titan) souls. This added power is lying dormant inside them, waiting to be actualized.

[Deleted]

thorim sure gives a godly buff.

other then that its your typicall lore vs gameplay comparision.

in lore thrall/malfurion/etc do amazing stuff, leveling entire cities in one go if they want, creating thunder stroms the size of a country, etc. In game 40 people can zerg em down in a few minutes or they are "allies" in encounters who cast one spell every minute that pales to spells they cast in lore.
similarly in lore the titan watchers defeated the old god empires, the elemental lords, empowered the dragon flights who are very strong in and of themselves, etc, but in game they are beaten by 25 plebs who show up one day.

[nnelson54]

Meanwhile Odyn somehow screwed up his relationship with Helya (hoping that's explained a bit more in my artifact research) and got himself cursed and locked into his halls - although he can still leave in the form of a Vrykul shaman named Havi.

He wanted her to become the first Valkyr, and she said no. Then he did it anyway and she was pissed at being enslaved against her will, so when Loken offered her a chance at revenge she used the same Titan powers that allowed the Watchers to seal the Elemental Lords into the Elemental Planes to seal Odyn and his followers into the Halls of Valor.

[Enthralled]

He wanted her to become the first Valkyr, and she said no. Then he did it anyway and she was pissed at being enslaved against her will, so when Loken offered her a chance at revenge she used the same Titan powers that allowed the Watchers to seal the Elemental Lords into the Elemental Planes to seal Odyn and his followers into the Halls of Valor.

Not just "the Watchers" -- she, Helya, is the specific Titan-forged who designed the Elemental Planes. So yeah, Odyn took the wrong bull by the horns there.

[Tenjen]

I think so far that's been blizzard first infidelity plot, it's a really really big event, but yeah it's so far the only one.

and they were better off without one for a reason.

[Kralljin]

(why, don't know but eh... Thorim-Thor, Loken-Loki, Odyn the All-Father, doesn't take a genius to see the reference). Helya was more of a surrogate daughter that he ended up pissing off by forcing her into becoming the first Val'kyr.

Personally i think this reference to norse mythology is simply forced.

All those Titan Keepers, Odyn, Thorim, Hodir and so forth were pretty much created equally and performed similiar stuff, all of them took part in defeating at least one Elemental Lord.

Odyn became the Prime designate because he led the others to victory against Yogg-saron, i get why they would see themselves as brothers but this Father / son thing is just weird.

At which point did Odyn gain the authority over these that they would take him as a father figure? Leader / Superior is one thing but Father is a totally different level.

Does Thorim take Helya for his Sister then? Does Thorim know his Father killed his sister and forced her into servitude?

All i can say: Any lore that somehow involves Odyn is just fucked up.

As for the actual topic:

I think they are quite powerful, but they don't seem to tap into their full power, Freya created the freaking Emerald Dream for example.

Altough i believe that bit about Thorim is exaggeration, i doubt that Thorim can level an entire continent.

But they seem pretty weak in the actual game because Thorim / Hodir become Warrior Followers, putting them on the same level as Millhouse Manastorm or Addie Fizzlebog (Gnome Hunter that had to take hunting lessons from you becomes a Hunter Follower later on).

But then again, they're part of the Warrior Lore in Legion, which involves Odyn, which is, as mentioned above, fucked up.

[Tenjen]

But they seem pretty weak in the actual game because Thorim / Hodir become Warrior Followers, putting them on the same level as Millhouse Manastorm or Addie Fizzlebog (Gnome Hunter that had to take hunting lessons from you becomes a Hunter Follower later on).

But then again, they're part of the Warrior Lore in Legion, which involves Odyn, which is, as mentioned above, fucked up.

the followers arent based on the factor of being on level with each other in any manner of the word. not even in the same orders.