Should I raid with a guild that uses Loot Council?

[Deleted]

Loot drama hasn't been the number 1 cause of guild problems since the game has launched?
You are lucky and found a good guild doesn't mean it will or does work for all.

Loot drama is only a problem when you let it become one. Anyone who makes drama about his loot simply has no place in my raid.

I don't care if you die in fire or get killed by a bosses cleaving abilities a few times in a row or if you don't do as much dps as expected. This can be fixed, anybody can learn movement. But the moment you bitch around about loot, you are out.

[Deleted]

The way my guild handles it:
GM, officers and RL are on the permanent council, plus one additional member of the raid (a regular) that gets rotated every few weeks or so.

I agree with Propainn's comments that progression > gear for mythic raiding. I can't see how progression would work otherwise. Of course we all care about gear, but at the end of the day it's the time you spend raiding and the joy of progressing.

[SirBeef]

if you think personal loot is the best for organized raiding, you shouldnt do any organized raiding.


loot council is easily the best option unless the GM is the biggest idiot in the world, but then just leave the guild and find a new one

We are running an experiment. We have two 20 man teams raiding in Legion. One is using master looter, the other is using personal loot. So far out of 28 kills, both teams cleared Normal and Heroic, ML team has seen 56 pieces of loot, of which, only 22 were usable upgrades. The PL team has gotten 73 pieces of loot, with 30 being usable upgrades. It's only been one week, and gear was not equal, but after week one, PL is winning out in our guild.

With that being said, it all depends on how a guild uses loot council. I have seen some that highly favors the main clique, some that give the the item to whoever it is the biggest upgrade for regardless of how many items that person may have gotten that night. Our LC makes sure it is spread evenly, one and done unless no one else needs it/suicide kings style. On rare occasions like maybe a 4 set to a tank when it will benefit the tank on the next fight situations. I have not seen or heard of anyone complaining about how we do loot in the years I've been in this guild. So get the information up front before making a decision.

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

"There is no world hunger, because i now eat a sandwich".

That analogy doesn't make sense. I've seen world hunger. In person, online, on TV. I've only seen a few people on MMO-C whine about "ninjaing" or "loot stealing" ... so yeah. IN my 10 years of playing this game, including countless dunegon runs, raids, etc ... I've seen single digit loots stolen. Thats very telling.

[Soisoisoi]

Skipped the rest of the thread, but we're using a mix of EPGP and LootCouncil. The only reason we're not using PL, as a non-hardcore guild, is to essentially control people and stop them being selfish in terms of raiding until they get what they want and not helping others.

People are greedy by nature. Unless everyone understands that gearing the raid properly is better for them than just getting gear themselves, it's better to have some form of EPGP alongside a lootcouncil IMO. Otherwise a LC alone will be fine. If you have no roster issues, then PL will also be fine, but trading gear to friends over those less known (cliques happen), will always be a problem.

Personally, I'd rather use a Need/Greed system with a raid full of people who understand their BiS, who are willing to also pass minor upgrades to people who need it, but I've yet to find one.

Through WoD we had a small group of people who either consistently turned up late [or not at all], were "busy", or just not making an effort. They signed up knowing it was 3 nights a week, at set times. What do you know, we put EPGP in shortly into BRF, and everyone started turning up. Those who didn't, didn't get priority on loot until they started being more active.

We had it set in a way that you got EPGP for being on time for the raid, every boss kill, every 15mins of the raid, and a bit more. It would also decay weekly, and you would lose ALL EPGP earned in a raid evening if you left early without an actual reason. We didn't have numbers to kick, else that'd have been an easier solution.

The LootCouncil side of things came into play with Tier Sets, trinkets, and BiS items. Every item was bidded on with EPGP, and the Council was able to vote via the addon quickly if any issue was apparent.
For example:
If you had 1 or 3 pieces of tier, you would have priority over someone with 0 or 2, so you could achieve your set bonus (assuming it was worth it).
We also used it to stop one of our Fire Mages trying to be a loot whore and getting every trinket in the instance because "he wanted to try it", knowing full well that haste trinket was useless for him and he already had BiS.

[Jewsco]

Loot drama is only a problem when you let it become one. Anyone who makes drama about his loot simply has no place in my raid.

I don't care if you die in fire or get killed by a bosses cleaving abilities a few times in a row or if you don't do as much dps as expected. This can be fixed, anybody can learn movement. But the moment you bitch around about loot, you are out.

Then I guess you go thru a lot of members because if the guy/girl dying to preventable damage keeps getting gear you bet your ass people will start to bitch about loot. Everyone is better or more deserving than everyone else is my experience. What constituents bitching by the way? Gear good for ones class never dropping, ones loot roll never winning anything, or never being awarded gear?

[SirBeef]

I've had nothing but good results with the guild I'm in and its loot council. If you have a GM and officers that distribute loot based off of a criteria and what is best for the raid then you've got a solid loot council. Besides gear should never be your #1 priority in progression- killing bosses should.

But for most of us non top 100 world firsters, we need the gear to beat the bosses. Not to many guilds kill bosses at or below the suggested raid ilvl. most kills happen after the group over gears the encounter. But i understand your sentiment, don't worry about not getting gear, eventually it will happen.

[Jewsco]

That analogy doesn't make sense. I've seen world hunger. In person, online, on TV. I've only seen a few people on MMO-C whine about "ninjaing" or "loot stealing" ... so yeah. IN my 10 years of playing this game, including countless dunegon runs, raids, etc ... I've seen single digit loots stolen. Thats very telling.

No it isn't it is just your personal experience you do know that what happens or happened to you doesn't apply to all? You do know the number 1 reason guilds break up is over loot drama right? Also you do know they added personal loot due to the way pugs got out of control especially last expansion. Heck they had to make boa's random drops due to that and this expansion has no bias in the raid. Keep thinkng your experience speaks for all though

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

I've raided with loot council, and DKP, and free for all.

DKP and loot council are very good systems but you have to commit for months and months to a guild. I've seen some people say loot council is a greedy system but its there to work to make their guild thrive to the fullest. If you are just there for loot and not for the guild its not for you.

Joining a guild with loot council shouldn't be your focus, the focus should be you are looking for a long term commitment type guild that you can make a home for. Pugging with guilds who do loot council is a thing you shouldnt do if the gear is your focus and not earning kills.

Great post, +1

[Racthoh]

depends on the council

if they are stupid, then it never works

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

No it isn't it is just your personal experience you do know that what happens or happened to you doesn't apply to all? You do know the number 1 reason guilds break up is over loot drama right? Also you do know they added personal loot due to the way pugs got out of control especially last expansion. Heck they had to make boa's random drops due to that and this expansion has no bias in the raid. Keep thinkng your experience speaks for all though

*Citation needed.
*Citation needed.

You're also talking about pugs. This is about guilds... so your point is moot.

[Jewsco]

*Citation needed.
*Citation needed.

You're also talking about pugs. This is about guilds... so your point is moot.

What facts have you given in any of this but what you claim? Show me some proof that you keep wanting from others because you have yet to. All you have done is talk about your personal preference.
So no loot drama has ever happened in guilds you are now claiming ?

[Self Inflicted Wounds]

What facts have you given in any of this but what you claim? Show me some proof that you keep wanting from others because you have yet to. All you have done is talk about your personal preference.
So no loot drama has ever happened in guilds you are now claiming ?

YOU are making the claim, so YOU have to back them up. I need some sources please.

I'm also again, going to point out your only real point is in relation to pugs... not guilds. AND you still haven;t given a source as to why PL was implemented. I've never seen Blizzard say it was due to ninjas.. definitely not because its "LC Ninjas"

[Nynax]

I have been out of the raiding scene for years and from what I am reading personal loot seems like a better overall gearing option for entire guilds but on my servers the only guilds recruiting are all loot council based. I am wondering if the Inner circle buddy system will be prevalent and something I should just walk away from.

I joined this one guild recently since all 5 of the only mythic guilds recruiting all used loot council but has anyone had alot of good experiences with loot council or should I just cut my ties? I did notice that the officers were all grouped together doing mythic modes seeming to exclude other members but that is natural to want to group up with your closer knit friends so that has no bearing on this issue. Just seems ripe for abuse over personal loot or DKP.

Just my 2 cents OP. But you really just need to get a feel for the guild itself. Maybe message some of the less visually active raiders from last tier and see what they thing.

I can say that in my guild our GM, also probably our best healer, tends to gear himself last. Unless we are progressing on a fight where healing is especially difficult.
Our loot council decision making pretty accurately falls along some general guidelines:

• What's best for guild progression?
• for whom is it the biggest upgrade?
•*Who has the most reliable attendance?

[Jewsco]

YOU are making the claim, so YOU have to back them up. I need some sources please.

I'm also again, going to point out your only real point is in relation to pugs... not guilds. AND you still haven;t given a source as to why PL was implemented. I've never seen Blizzard say it was due to ninjas.. definitely not because its "LC Ninjas"

You too are making the claim it doesn't happen so where is your proof? What can't you see that it works both ways? Nice try though.

[Deleted]

And another person proving the OP's point. Unless a world first raiding guild personal loot is the much better choice now. As any sort of loot council only leads to unneeded drama and slows the raid down on top of it. Why do any loot style that will lead players whether true or not that others are getting preferential treatment?

Care to enlighten me why you think that?

With personal loot, I've already several times gotten items I do not need, and some even warforge or titanforge yet are flat out worse than the item I already had, and thus couldn't trade them over to other people. With personal loot, that's the problem you have, your gear distribution will be suboptimal and it you will waste gear that otherwise could have been to use to others. Therefor your raid's gear progression, and by extension your overall progress, will suffer.

If your loot council has people in it above the age of 21, then you shouldn't really have issues.

If you feel like the guild gives others preferential treatment, leave the guild, find one who doesn't.

[Jewsco]

Care to enlighten me why you think that?

With personal loot, I've already several times gotten items I do not need, and some even warforge or titanforge yet are flat out worse than the item I already had, and thus couldn't trade them over to other people. With personal loot, that's the problem you have, your gear distribution will be suboptimal and it you will waste gear that otherwise could have been to use to others. Therefor your raid's gear progression, and by extension your overall progress, will suffer.

If your loot council has people in it above the age of 21, then you shouldn't really have issues.

If you feel like the guild gives others preferential treatment, leave the guild, find one who doesn't.

What proof do you have of any of that? Could of easily of gotten gear one could trade or received gear in trade from personal loot which another poster has shown so far with two raid teams going and one using personal loot that the personal loot team is getting more gear.
So you are just being biased against it then?

[Teaklog]

8 years? wow must have been nice to use loot counsil to get loot 1st for all these years

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I raided in TBC and Wrath and always been in guild using DKP.

Quitted for few years then came back in WoD and raided abit.
For some reason most guilds are using loot counsil now.
Not saying that loot counsil is bad but man, my experience with it was awful.

Idk my experience with loot council has been great. Most successful guilds who use loot council will distribute it based on what benefits the raid the most. A better interpretation of what a lot of people here are saying; if you aren't prepared to think of the whole raid as a single unit, then you aren't prepared to mythic raid.

In one guild I had been completely new to, within a month I became one of the top 3 most geared players in the guild, because I was a mage and gear benefitted my dps the most. The guild found the percentage upgrade from each classes 2 sets/4 sets and made sure those classes got their set bonuses first. For example if mages got a 20% dps increase from their 4 set and DK's got a 2% increase, they would make sure the mage would get the 4 set ASAP.

A lot of people seem to think that loot councils tend to try to benefit themselves, but those are the poor loot council. The good loot council, i.e. the ones in mythic guilds worth a damn, will distribute it based on the raid's need. Just like they will bring along classes based on their raids need. If you aren't willing to put your raids progress>your personal progress, you aren't ready to be mythic raiding.

Just remember you're applying to these guilds to be part of a team. If you are applying to a team where the leader cares about himself over the progress of said team, you are applying to the wrong team. I've seen a few other people on here act like thats an elitist thing to say...its really not. If your loot council is distributing loot in a selfish manner, then they are a shitty loot council...


Edit: Those who believe it doesn't matter for guilds besides world firsts are wrong -- Its about maximizing progress. If the current guilds in the 50-100 slots didn't use loot council, they may be in the 200th slot, for example. When it comes to rankings, sure everyone who cares shoots for first place, but to get there you always need to be looking at whats directly in front of you. When running in a race, you don't always look at first place...you look at the person in front of you and try to pass them, then you repeat. Thats how you get to be in first place eventually.

[mahesvara]

A good loot council is a sign of a good guild.

A bad loot council is a sign of a bad guild and probably has more problems than just the loot council.

Loot council is the best way to do it. Sure you got bad apples just like most other things but if your care about decent raid progression then LC is the best way to go.

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No it isn't it is just your personal experience you do know that what happens or happened to you doesn't apply to all? You do know the number 1 reason guilds break up is over loot drama right? Also you do know they added personal loot due to the way pugs got out of control especially last expansion. Heck they had to make boa's random drops due to that and this expansion has no bias in the raid. Keep thinkng your experience speaks for all though

#1 reason guilds break up is because they're badly ran loot drama is simply a part of it.

[Jewsco]

A good loot council is a sign of a good guild.

A bad loot council is a sign of a bad guild and probably has more problems than just the loot council.

Loot council is the best way to do it. Sure you got bad apples just like most other things but if your care about decent raid progression then LC is the best way to go.

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#1 reason guilds break up is because they're badly ran loot drama is simply a part of it.

Exactly and for loot council to work the guild needs strong leadership but that isn't always the case. Yes, if ran right loot council works great but that isn't easy to do. To add in a level where the leadership has to be fair and balanced and have a good knowledge of all classes and specs is expecting a lot. And I have seen it work out great but I have also seen it fail. I have seen it fail after working for a long time if say the gm takes a break. It is a lot on the gm with loot council. And as this thread is all about the op is the new guy not knowing how it works in the new guild and we are pointing out to be wary.