How can people say now that Sylvanas isnt evil ?

[steelballfc]

Isn't this the whole point of Sylvanas / Jaina threads?

I don't post that much just because of this (and i post a lot, imagine how it could be :P )

if we are not getting somewhere
we are wasting our time

[Raetary]

people people
we are running circles here
we are in a loop

that's the entire point of sylvanas threads.
people say some bullshit, normal people correct them, people say they are wrong and repeat.

[steelballfc]

that's the entire point of sylvanas threads.
people say some bullshit, normal people correct them, people say they are wrong and repeat.

Fascinating
all of this for a dead elf

[Zulkhan]

And you live in a weird universe were it is a good idea to let healers, sorcerers and people who fight as bears fight in a joust, while letting the Horde and Alliance fight each other till the death with the scourge right in front of you.

As silly as it may have looked (because it did) facts in hand that tournament guaranteed the assault on Icecrown Citadel to be an actual success rather than a gift to Arthas.

And seriously, Horde and Alliance were already fighting to death, in the Lich King's very domain. Did you forget that while the Ebon Blade gave you dailies to undermine Icecrown's defenses the Horde/Alliance quest givers gave you dailies focused on killing each other?

At least that tournament channeled most of that aggressiveness to something different than each other.

[Deleted]

Well... if you think about it, that was the best way to "control" the Alliance and Horde conflict (Instead of having a full blown war, they got a small contest, and thanks to that, not that many people died)

Also... he's the best Paladin card :P

Not really, no. The best way to solve this conflict is to tell Garrosh that he is loved just the way he is and that his father would be proud of him, he don't have to prove somethign to anyone and to Varian that t was horrible what happened to him, but that letting yet again children grew up in war with dead parents solves nothing, other than everything the Alliance survived until now be in vain and that the best way to honor his father would be always to be better than the Orcs in the First War, not letting hate and fury cloud his mind and his soul. Because Tirion is a Paladin. Half Knight, Half Cleric. As a Cleric, it would be his Job to solve the interpersonal conflicts of the people arround him peacefulöly. Letting Heroes of Alliance and Horde die is exactly the opposite of what he should do. It is what a Death Knight should do, letting all those who are unworthy die in vain. Not to forget that this Tournament was a gigantic vaste of ressources to begin with. I'm pretty sure from the costs of this entire tournament, one could build a gunship. And I still dont get how fighting in a joust would help us find the best everything other than Knights. Like hell, logically nobody but Human would even participate in that shit, because that form of mounted combat is nothing other races use in their warfare, so it gives the humans an unfiar advantage and does shit to proof if an Orc or a Night Elf is worthy in participating in the final war against Icecrown Citadel.

[Mehrunes]

When said refugees tried to join the Alliance forces and run deeper into Enemy territory yea. You're a hypocrite through and through, you would be over yourself if the roles were switched. You love the Scarlet crusade and say what they do is reasonable.

The best example of their hypocrisy is their acknowledgment of Forsaken creating a successor state to Lordaeron and complaining that they are expanding beyond Lordaeron (neatly ignoring that they were forced to invade Gilneas, Alterac and southern part of Silverpine were abandoned and belonged to no one and Galen was the only confirmed claimant to Stromgarde), yet Forsaken consolidating their hold on the kingdom of Lordaeron is still bad. Apparently Forsaken's successor status only applies to being blamed for internment camps and letting other human kingdoms get off scot-free despite said kingdoms still taking part and in Lordaeron it being the decision of ruling Menethil dynasty with individual Forsaken having jack shit to do with it and then rebelling against Menethil dynasty in a civil war.

Ah yes, I forgot you lived in that weird universe where Tirion is the embodiment of evil.

Avatar of Sargeras, no doubt. That's why he survived basting in Fel lake even after his "light" shield has broken. It was all a ruse.

[Deleted]

The best example of their hypocrisy is their acknowledgment of Forsaken creating a successor state to Lordaeron and complaining that they are expanding beyond Lordaeron (neatly ignoring that they were forced to invade Gilneas, Alterac and southern part of Silverpine were abandoned and belonged to no one and Galen was the only confirmed claimant to Stromgarde), yet Forsaken consolidating their hold on the kingdom of Lordaeron is still bad. Apparently Forsaken's successor status only applies to being blamed for internment camps and letting other human kingdoms get off scot-free despite said kingdoms still taking part and in Lordaeron it being the decision of ruling Menethil dynasty with individual Forsaken having jack shit to do with it and then rebelling against Menethil dynasty in a civil war.

That's how being a successor state works, you have to get along with the mess of your predecessor. My point was, that if somebody was to blame for the internment camps, it would be rather the forsaken than the humans. The internment camps were a Lordaeron job, the Forsaken claim to be Lordaeron.

And how they were forced to invade Gilneas? They are their own state, they hold the responsibility about what they do. If they didn't wanted that, they could have said "No, we don't are doing this". They did this, it's their fault. And they still try it, even after Garrosh is gone. And Stromgarde is still a foreign Country and the Forsaken attacked it since Classic. When Galen became a Forsaken, Stromgarde was already in war with the Forsaken for a couple of years, turning him into a Traitor King (especially since he killed his King). I think we can agree that Anu'barak or Death Knight Arthas had no real claim to their crowns anymore, once they attacked their own people and joined factions they their countries were in war with.

[steelballfc]

Hopeless case

[Raetary]

"No, we don't are doing this"

no they could have not.
garrosh would call them traitors, and raid their land.

[mickybrighteyes]

That's how being a successor state works, you have to get along with the mess of your predecessor. My point was, that if somebody was to blame for the internment camps, it would be rather the forsaken than the humans.

except for you know... the human survivors who fled south and currently live in regions around stormwind getting mad and sending would be heroes out to kill their family members who didn't quite stay dead.

Really awkward to try placing blame on various groups since neither the current alliance or forsaken are purely comprised of Lordaeron residents and the monarchy of that kingdom is long since been scattered to the wind or underfoot.

[Deleted]

except for you know... the human survivors who fled south and currently live in regions around stormwind getting mad and sending would be heroes out to kill their family members who didn't quite stay dead.

Really awkward to try placing blame on various groups since neither the current alliance or forsaken are purely comprised of Lordaeron residents and the monarchy of that kingdom is long since been scattered to the wind or underfoot.

Wasn't this more like Forsaken Style?

[steelballfc]

That'd be hard to do when your capital is surrounded and infiltrated by Garrosh his guards.

which was already surrounded with Krokron Guards since WOTLK

[Deleted]

which was already surrounded with Krokron Guards since WOTLK

She could have asked the Alliance for help.

[Friendlyimmolation]

She could have asked the Alliance for help.

Yes the Alliance would have totally helped them

[Zulkhan]

Yes the Alliance would have totally helped them

Indeed, that's why in Sylvanas' vision Varian is shown exploiting Garrosh's poor treatment of the Forsaken to deliver the killing blow and take over Lordaeron. That was great help.

[Deleted]

Indeed, that's why in Sylvanas' vision Varian is shown exploiting Garrosh's poor treatment of the Forsaken to deliver the killing blow and take over Lordaeron. That was great help.

I'm pretty sure in this Vision they are still Horde Members and, you know, invaded the newest member of the Alliance.

We can't know if the Alliance would have accepted a offer of the Forsaken to join the Alliance or not. We know that the Alliance already accepted Death Knights into their ranks, we know that the Alliance has an ideological interest in Lordaeron. Accepting the Forsaken into the Alliance would be a deal in which the Alliance wouldn't have much to lose. They could get back Lordaeron, by forcing the Forsaken to accept the living Citizens back, they maybe could get back Quel'thalas, as the Blood Elves wouldn't have much choice and if they ban the use of Val'kyr on their own members, they would certainly know that the humans can outlive the Forsaken. The Forsaken on the other Hand, wouldn't have an enemy near their territory anymore and they probably wouldn't even have a need for Necromancy, as they could use Humans to fill their ranks. So, the Forsaken wouldn't even have something to fear themselves. They can use Human soldiers to refill their ranks and wouldn't have to fear losing the military strength to defend themselves.

[Friendlyimmolation]

I'm pretty sure in this Vision they are still Horde Members and, you know, invaded the newest member of the Alliance.

We can't know if the Alliance would have accepted a offer of the Forsaken to join the Alliance or not. We know that the Alliance already accepted Death Knights into their ranks, we know that the Alliance has an ideological interest in Lordaeron. Accepting the Forsaken into the Alliance would be a deal in which the Alliance wouldn't have much to lose. They could get back Lordaeron, by forcing the Forsaken to accept the living Citizens back, they maybe could get back Quel'thalas, as the Blood Elves wouldn't have much choice and if they ban the use of Val'kyr on their own members, they would certainly know that the humans can outlive the Forsaken. The Forsaken on the other Hand, wouldn't have an enemy near their territory anymore and they probably wouldn't even have a need for Necromancy, as they could use Humans to fill their ranks.

So basically be muscled out of their own kingdom by humans and the Alliance in general. Aside from laughing in their face, Varian would attack them anyways. Why force the Forsaken to let them in when they can just attack them without the Horde helping them at all?

[Deleted]

So basically be muscled out of their own kingdom by humans and the Alliance in general. Aside from laughing in their face, Varian would attack them anyways. Why force the Forsaken to let them in when they can just attack them without the Horde helping them at all?

We have a prove that the Alliance is willing to accept Undeads. So what? Varian himself accepted the Ebon Blade, even higher ranking former Members of the Scourge.

[Aquamonkey]

We have a prove that the Alliance is willing to accept Undeads. So what? Varian himself accepted the Ebon Blade, even higher ranking former Members of the Scourge.

Variant had just tried to conquer Undercity and declared war on them....

[Deleted]

Variant had just tried to conquer Undercity and declared war on them....

After Wrathgate, yes. War never escalated.