Where Protection Warriors getting to much Rage? A constructive Talk aboutthe Inc Nerf

[Deleted]

Protection

Vengeance (Talent) Rage cost reduction reduced to 35%. Before it would provide a 50% Reduction!
Intercept Rage generation reduced to 10. before it generated 20 Rage
Shield Slam Rage generation reduced to 10. before it generated 15 Rage

Main tank:
So I have only raided Emerald Nightmare one time, but I haven't felt any excessive rage during main tanking.
I had enough to keep myself alive not more..

Off-tank
As the off-tank I was looking forward to build up my focused rage to 3x and give a few huge shield slam blows..
But getting rage as the off-tank seemed very daunting.

My haste is not on its cap yet, but still a decent 22%.
My question and search for some fair criticism to other protection tanks out there.
Are you having the same issue's or do you have any feedback on how it should be done, to not have these issue's?
Do you feel in time with better gear this problem will be non existent or maybe not?

Please share your point of views, and if you do feel the urge to criticize, go ahead just provide us with some constructive criticism please.

[Liania]

Its a nerf to ignore pain without actually nerfing ignore pain.

[W1sp]

I found I had plenty of rage while taking tons of damage but when I was waiting to be blessed to taunt a boss of the other tank it would take ages to get enough rage to be able to pop a full up + db

[flzk]

90% of the time i had barely enough rage to keep an okish IP running(while tanking), while offtanking it was pure agony. the only periods you get much rage is when you take permanently heavy damage. preparing big IPs for an incoming "heavy damage" phase was not possible. after the hotfixes, it will be a pain in the ass gameplay wise

[Volardelis]

Its a nerf to ignore pain without actually nerfing ignore pain.

It is a nerf to everything for prot. DPS, tanking, everything

[Arikara]

So instead of struggling to generate enough rage to maintain an optimal rotation, we now wont even ever be able to pay for both SB and refreshing IP once every ~14 sec, unless we are taking excessive damage. Great, thanks. I'd have preferred IP being nerfed into the ground, now I will be forced to either mass pull, or play with the massive ball and chain that is not enough rage dragging me down.

[Shadow Fox]

So instead of struggling to generate enough rage to maintain an optimal rotation, we now wont even ever be able to pay for both SB and refreshing IP once every ~14 sec, unless we are taking excessive damage. Great, thanks. I'd have preferred IP being nerfed into the ground, now I will be forced to either mass pull, or play with the massive ball and chain that is not enough rage dragging me down.

Glad to see I wasn't the only person having some Rage Generation issues...

I would of been okay even with Ignore Pain being down to %60, or maybe even %50 from %90.

But the Rage change seems only crippling in ST positions? :S

They had to of known how insanely strong Ignore Pain was in the Beta, and especially at release... And yet for what ever reason, they're leaving it in as one of the strongest mitigation abilities in the current game, but instead of adjusting it, they just throttle the rage generation?

This really doesn't make any sense to me! >,<

[Anuibus]

I don't even know why they went back to RFDT when all it does is cause problems. Should've kept high rage gen on abilities, and if required, added back rage generation on auto attacks. RFDT is just a stupid concept.

[Volardelis]

I don't even know why they went back to RFDT when all it does is cause problems. Should've kept high rage gen on abilities, and if required, added back rage generation on auto attacks. RFDT is just a stupid concept.

Cause 'Class fantasy' and other stupid reasons

- - - Updated - - -

Glad to see I wasn't the only person having some Rage Generation issues...

I would of been okay even with Ignore Pain being down to %60, or maybe even %50 from %90.

But the Rage change seems only crippling in ST positions? :S

They had to of known how insanely strong Ignore Pain was in the Beta, and especially at release... And yet for what ever reason, they're leaving it in as one of the strongest mitigation abilities in the current game, but instead of adjusting it, they just throttle the rage generation?

This really doesn't make any sense to me! >,<

When has blizzard logic made sense to anyone?

Just look at WoD, they nerfed all of prots dps abilities to nerf gladiator, but also nerfing prot (tanking) dps as well when the warrior community was saying' just nerf the scaling on the stance'. Which blizzard ended up doing anyway about a month later

[apples]

tanking high burst low duration mobs is gonna be tons of fun

i hope you bring 10 externals in your raid

or a pal tank

[Deleted]

It is a nerf to everything for prot. DPS, tanking, everything

I'm not entirely sure what they want to achieve with this set of nerfs. If it's IP uptime it seems a funny way of going about it, if it's to balance the Vengeance it seems overkill to nerf the rage form SS and from intercept too. In fact this actually pushes us into using Intercept even more egregiously just to maximise RPS rather than as a tool for mobility, or as an external CD for our co-tank. now it's basically gonna be "are you about to have >1 charges of intercept? then intercept co-tank" regardless of who has aggro. Really I think they need to make Hostile intercepts generate 20 rage and Friendly intercepts generate 10 rage when the buff is consumed.

I've felt rage starved since the sytems patch, this is going to feel like I have even less control of my resource, Spending it pretty much as fast as I could generate it and if I don't get lucky with SnB/Rev/ultimatum procs I could go the entire length of a demo shout before I could get an IP up on the pull, no I'm concerned we're gonna have similar issues to those DKs had back in cata.

[Deleted]

I wasn't surprised about this. I was wondering why protection warriors guides don't suggest you just macro FR+IP if you use Vengeance and if you do actually use Focused Rage constantly, because normally, without Vengeance, it would cost 30 + 20-60 so 50 rage to get the minimum IP after Focused Rage, 90 rage to get the maximum IP after Focused Rage, and, 60 rage to get the maximum IP without Focused Rage.

With Vengeance and an FR+IP macro, as the discount buffs will be on pretty much constantly, aside from the first FR cost being the full 30, consequently they will cost 15 for the FR and 30 for the maximum IP, meaning you get the maximum IP effect for 45 rage, as opposed for 60 rage if you don't use Vengeance.

People were telling me that there are times you'd want to mitigate more and all that weird stuff, but to me, getting maximum mitigation for 45 rage is still better than getting it for 60 rage, especially when you get the effect of FR on the side. I guess their point was that sometimes you want to get a 20-44 (out of 60) rage worth of IP, giving only a 33% to 73% effect IP, but with IP only stacking the last two times you use it (overriding the third last time every time), it doesn't make much sense to me to do that. Unless of course you're in some oh shit -situation, but then you might want to use oh shit -abilities. Plus, to get a 73% effect (44 rage without Vengeance) IP with Vengeance discounts now would actually cost cost 37 rage which is 7 rage less than if not using Vengeance.

The math just doesn't make any sense not to use Vengeance and FR+IP.

The Vengeance nerf is probably going to affect this FR+IP playstyle. It will now cost 58.5 rage (30+60=90, 90*0.65=58.5), so rounded up to 59 rage, to get a full IP plus the effects of one stack of FR. Which, incidentally, still makes the FR+IP macro playstyle 1 rage more effective than simply using IP and nothing else if you go for max IP.

[Deleted]

dont expect much from the dev team they're incompetent >.>

spec into NEVER SURRENDER, pool up rage and keep smashing revenge and shield. you forget there is a healer who has to keep your health positive ^_^

[Emtee1986]

I wasn't surprised about this. I was wondering why protection warriors guides don't suggest you just macro FR+IP if you use Vengeance and if you do actually use Focused Rage constantly, because normally, without Vengeance, it would cost 30 + 20-60 so 50 rage to get the minimum IP after Focused Rage, 90 rage to get the maximum IP after Focused Rage, and, 60 rage to get the maximum IP without Focused Rage.

With Vengeance and an FR+IP macro, as the discount buffs will be on pretty much constantly, aside from the first FR cost being the full 30, consequently they will cost 15 for the FR and 30 for the maximum IP, meaning you get the maximum IP effect for 45 rage, as opposed for 60 rage if you don't use Vengeance.

People were telling me that there are times you'd want to mitigate more and all that weird stuff, but to me, getting maximum mitigation for 45 rage is still better than getting it for 60 rage, especially when you get the effect of FR on the side. I guess their point was that sometimes you want to get a 20-44 (out of 60) rage worth of IP, giving only a 33% to 73% effect IP, but with IP only stacking the last two times you use it (overriding the third last time every time), it doesn't make much sense to me to do that. Unless of course you're in some oh shit -situation, but then you might want to use oh shit -abilities. Plus, to get a 73% effect (44 rage without Vengeance) IP with Vengeance discounts now would actually cost cost 37 rage which is 7 rage less than if not using Vengeance.

The math just doesn't make any sense not to use Vengeance and FR+IP.

The Vengeance nerf is probably going to affect this FR+IP playstyle. It will now cost 58.5 rage (30+60=90, 90*0.65=58.5), so rounded up to 59 rage, to get a full IP plus the effects of one stack of FR. Which, incidentally, still makes the FR+IP macro playstyle 1 rage more effective than simply using IP and nothing else if you go for max IP.

You wouldn't macro it because of dragon scale fishing and double focused rage weaving for damage... Also IP capping. People for some reason think dragon scale fishing isn't a thing but i was able to do it on ursoc and xavius heroic which are the highest tank damage fights in EN atm. A macro for the vengeance rotation is just pretty awful in general, you could get by with it i guess but you're gimping yourself for the sake of one extra button.

Anybody who is rage starved is doing it wrong, on most bosses pending mechanics i'm able to intervene the other tank while not tanking on CD and pool a bigger IP than the hit and maintain shield block while intervening for scales procs. If i'm not able to intervene the other tank my second macro goes to a melee dps who stands on the left so the boss doesn't fully spin.

[Deleted]

You wouldn't macro it because of dragon scale fishing and double focused rage weaving for damage... Also IP capping.

Well, you cap IP easier with Vengeance according to pure math, so I don't know why you wouldn't use it if max IP is what you're going for, especially with the help of Ultimatum. As for double FR's every now and then as opposed to a single FR every time... I guess you need that double buff for something.

dragon scale fishing

I have to admit I have no idea what this is.

you're gimping yourself for the sake of one extra button.

Well, before the upcoming nerfs, I have to say having to spend 60 rage to max IP instead of 45 that also gives you a damage bonus is what's gimping, but I suppose there's some higher logic at work here that transcends simple mathematics and rage amounts.

[Deleted]

dragon scale fishing

I have to admit I have no idea what this is.

He's referring to (wowhead.com)/spell=203576/dragon-scales and I have to agree with him, sometimes it's worth waiting for this to proc, so that you spend Rage more efficiently.

you're gimping yourself for the sake of one extra button.

Well, before the upcoming nerfs, I have to say having to spend 60 rage to max IP instead of 45 that also gives you a damage bonus is what's gimping, but I suppose there's some higher logic at work here that transcends simple mathematics and rage amounts..

You're losing flexibility of having FR on a separate button from IP, so that you can use only FR when off-tanking and use IP when you're taking a crapton of damage to not die (i.e. when your DRs are on CD and you just need to survive).

I'm very sad about this nerf, and although Vengeance will still be viable, it's going to be primarily a DPS increase and that 1 Rage you save on IP is just a spit in the face. I wonder if ItF is going to be better for survivability (3% Haste, d'uh).

Blizzard have yet again displayed their incompetence in class balancing *sadface*.

[Deleted]

You're losing flexibility of having FR on a separate button from IP, so that you can use only FR when off-tanking and use IP when you're taking a crapton of damage to not die (i.e. when your DRs are on CD and you just need to survive).

OK... Well the situation is, before the upcoming nerfs, that is, that if neither of the discounts from Vengeance is up, and you use an FR+IP macro, you will spend 30 rage for FR and 10-30 rage for IP because the use of FR just discounted it 50%, giving you a full IP with total of 60 rage, plus the effect of FR.

Without Vengeance, if you want a full IP, it costs what? 60 rage.

So, even if Ultimatum isn't up giving a free FR, and even if the Vengeance discount for FR isn't up, and you're going for a full IP, you still spend the exact same amount of rage by doing an FR+IP combo, plus you get the benefits of FR. However, if FR is discounted already, you only spend 45 rage for a full IP (plus the benefits of an FR), and if Ultimatum is procced, you only spend 30 rage for a full IP.

So as far as talking about min-maxing mitigation per rage goes, I honestly can't see the maths behind not using FR+IP as a combination with Vengeance. Of course this will change after the nerf, which I believe might be exactly the reason for the nerf to begin with.

If we're talking about putting up a lesser IP charge/stack, without Vengeance you'd use from 20 rage (33% IP) to 60 rage (100% IP), but the thing is, as far as I'm aware, if you're at 20-29 rage and you use the FR+IP macro, and FR isn't discounted, the FR use of the macro will fail because you have no rage for it, but the IP use will go through normally, because you can afford that one since it costs 20-60, and you're at 20-29 rage. The macro doesn't fail completely at the FR use. Then you'll get a 20-29 rage undiscounted IP (33-48%), and the FR discount will pop up.

So we're basically only looking at a situation where you're at 30-39 rage and no discounts are up, meaning you'll use FR but not have enough rage left to use IP at it's lowest as well (30 for FR and 10 for IP, so 40 rage). This functionality, incidentally, also allows you to stack FR more than once with the macro if you know what you're doing.

But I mean, all of this is of course pointless now, since Vengeance is getting nerfed, and the rage use amounts will change.

[Shieldarm]

Let me clarify something... If you're using Vengeance, you STILL fished for Dragon Scales procs. It's not like you just didn't use it. You held off on using Vengeance though, to see if you could get your proc. If one of the buffs was about to fade (or you were about to lose IP), then yeah. You threw it up. If that's not the case, then you held onto it, to get the proc. You don't suddenly use more rage, you just use it more intelligently. You lose the capability to do this by macroing them. I've had it happen where my Vengeance:FR buff was about to expire with no proc, I used it, but I still had some IP up, so I didn't immediately use my V:IP. Then, I get a Dragon Scales proc, so I used it then. Had I had it macroed, I'd have missed out on a big chunk of IP value.

As for your argument of using it at 20-29 rage, let me just point out that if you're going for mitigation, unless you're about to die, you never want to waste rage on anything but a full IP when using Vengeance. This is because it reduces your overall rage/IP. For example. Let's say I generate 1000 rage over the course of a fight. For simple purpose here, I never get a crit, and I always use IP at 25 rage with Veng. First, we do a 30 rage FR, then a 25 rage IP. That reduces us to 945. From then on, we're looking at a 40 rage (15+25) rotation. So we get an extra 23 uses out of IP, leaving us with 25 rage to spare, spending a total of 600 rage on IP. Now, if we wait until 30 rage IP, we start by reducing our initial value by 60, to 940. Then, a 45 rage rotation, so an extra 20 uses, leaving us with 40 rage. In this case we still spend 630 rage on IP. So, we basically end up with a full value IP more, over the course of a fight. Even after accounting for it only absorbing 90% of damage, that's a full million damage more that you straight up don't need healed, by spending those 5 extra rage on IP.

[Vtai]

Reroll to prot paladin guys. *puts on tinfoil hat* Blizz won't never nerf pallies as they been nerfing other tank classes. Why? Two of their top WoW streamers plays prot pallies.

[Agilent]

Reroll to prot paladin guys. *puts on tinfoil hat* Blizz won't never nerf pallies as they been nerfing other tank classes. Why? Two of their top WoW streamers plays prot pallies.

they literally just nerfed prot paladins......