Legion - Subtlety discussion

[13en3]

The guide assumes you have 3/3 Energetic Stabbing (or ideally more) and that it procs, otherwise you won't have enough energy to do all of them. However the guide is also wrong since you should always spend finishers as soon as you hit 5/6 CP in order to reduce your dance CD and refund energy. Thus the maximum number of Shadowstrikes you will ever do back to back is 3.

Fresh 110 can hit 4 Shadowstrikes and Eviscerate with the Subterfuge and Vigor talents, even without being specced into Energetic Stabbing. Two Shadowstrikes, Eviscerate, two Shadowstrikes is definitely doable.

[Spiritvs]

Generally this is the most up to date information: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...h.ta7x4ri069in

You will need to Sim your character with your gear to get YOUR exact stat weights.

Hey thanks for that document.
Although im not sure about that Mythic+ aoe rotation
From what i know we replace Backstab with shuriken storm.
But is it worth to Dot all the mobs? Or just eviscerate the main one?

[neozz1]

Hey thanks for that document.
Although im not sure about that Mythic+ aoe rotation
From what i know we replace Backstab with shuriken storm.
But is it worth to Dot all the mobs? Or just eviscerate the main one?

My guess would be DoT if they will live for the whole thing to tick through and otherwise evis, this is just an assumption though.

[Naiattavain]

Quick question before I raid tonight, what's the consensus on Subtlety PvE as far as Marked for Death vs Master of Shadows? Master of Shadows is what I have been using, but icy veins says to use marked for death. I just dont see how MFD would be a DPS increase over master of shadows.

Also, deeper stratagem vs vigor? I've read different opinions on each one.

i prefer deeper stratagem but vigor and enveloping shadows opens up the rotations with resource being optimal. as fast as it gets.

[13en3]

i prefer deeper stratagem but vigor and enveloping shadows opens up the rotations with resource being optimal. as fast as it gets.

I wonder if there is a iLVL where it is better to use Deeper Stratagem over Vigor. Vigor seems better to me for PvE when running world quests and having to kill a lot of mobs that don't pose much threat. I can see why DS would be better in PvP though.

[Celfydd]

Fresh 110 can hit 4 Shadowstrikes and Eviscerate with the Subterfuge and Vigor talents, even without being specced into Energetic Stabbing. Two Shadowstrikes, Eviscerate, two Shadowstrikes is definitely doable.

If you do this then either you have randomly popped a CP from Shadow Techniques or you have a less than 100% chance for Relentless Strikes to give you its 40 energy. So it's random, i.e. it might fail. Energetic Stabbing doesn't solve that but it does reduce the probability of failure significantly.

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how do you deal with mythic+ trash packs? Shall I shuriken and dot them all with night blades? Or just eviscerate main target? Or none of those?

It depends how long they will live. If they will live for the majority of the Nightblade duration (at least 80% or so of it) then Nightblade them. If they won't then Eviscerate them. Try to avoid doing both since then you don't make best use of Finality. And use dance before Shuriken Storm, you will be doing a lot of finishers so you can get the dance CD down very low (maybe 12 seconds or so).

[scrangos]

If you do this then either you have randomly popped a CP from Shadow Techniques or you have a less than 100% chance for Relentless Strikes to give you its 40 energy. So it's random, i.e. it might fail. Energetic Stabbing doesn't solve that but it does reduce the probability of failure significantly.

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It depends how long they will live. If they will live for the majority of the Nightblade duration (at least 80% or so of it) then Nightblade them. If they won't then Eviscerate them. Try to avoid doing both since then you don't make best use of Finality. And use dance before Shuriken Storm, you will be doing a lot of finishers so you can get the dance CD down very low (maybe 12 seconds or so).

4ss evis definitely works.

skill - nrg at start of gcd
ss 150
ss 121
evis 92
ss 68
ss 39

all it takes is a smidge of haste to get it on gcd or less than tenth of a second which shadow dance certainly has length for.


As for aoe, theres some considerations with nrg and relentless but disregarding that... nightblade scales its time with cps not dps. The breakpoint between a 5pt evis and nightblade is 10 seconds (2cp), so if its gonna live over 10 secs even a 2pt nb might be worth it. If its only 3 targets it may also be worth putting a 3pt nightblade on each target.

[Deleted]

Today I got Chaos Talisman @860 and I was happy for a bit until I went to a training Dummy.

Activating Shadowblades actually make you lose your stacks because you don't auto-hit anymore. With 25 second Shadowblades is it even worth using? In raids I guess so but M+ losing out nearly 30 seconds?

Hope this is getting fixed :/

[RobertoCarlos]

Today I got Chaos Talisman @860 and I was happy for a bit until I went to a training Dummy.

Activating Shadowblades actually make you lose your stacks because you don't auto-hit anymore. With 25 second Shadowblades is it even worth using? In raids I guess so but M+ losing out nearly 30 seconds?

Hope this is getting fixed :/

Damn thats a pretty shitty bug

[elfporn]

Today I got Chaos Talisman @860 and I was happy for a bit until I went to a training Dummy.

Activating Shadowblades actually make you lose your stacks because you don't auto-hit anymore. With 25 second Shadowblades is it even worth using? In raids I guess so but M+ losing out nearly 30 seconds?

Hope this is getting fixed :/

report it as a bug

and keep reporting it

[lolpve]

Today I got Chaos Talisman @860 and I was happy for a bit until I went to a training Dummy.

Activating Shadowblades actually make you lose your stacks because you don't auto-hit anymore. With 25 second Shadowblades is it even worth using? In raids I guess so but M+ losing out nearly 30 seconds?

Hope this is getting fixed :/

No, it's crap even ignoring the bug.

[pies1]

Fucked up my artifact path. Worth respeccing?

http://www.wowhead.com/artifact-calc...NWAzWwM1wCVFAQ

That's it currently.

[Spiritvs]

Fucked up my artifact path. Worth respeccing?

http://www.wowhead.com/artifact-calc...NWAzWwM1wCVFAQ

That's it currently.

At such level I would.

[Deleted]

Fucked up my artifact path. Worth respeccing?

http://www.wowhead.com/artifact-calc...NWAzWwM1wCVFAQ

That's it currently.

mmm, depends. Is it going to be your main?

[Hhavok]

Fucked up my artifact path. Worth respeccing?

http://www.wowhead.com/artifact-calc...NWAzWwM1wCVFAQ

That's it currently.

The Icy Veins guide says you're headed in the right direction. The link you gave shows you're headed right down path 1.
http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/subtlet...-traits-relics
Unless the guide is dated, Akaari's Soul is your first dps increase you want to seek out. I was actually considering a re-spec to the route you're taking.

[lolpve]

His route is actually optimal since ideally we want to skip the shield trait. The bottom route just picks up a lot more damage traits quicker but it will always be a trait behind in the long term due to taking that shield trait. I considered re-doing it his way for that reason but I figured the shield might be semi-useful in pvp.

I would keep your spec but head for finality first and then back for akaari, since although akaari is more damage, the energy refund trait before finality is really good.

[FenrizZJ]

at 24 points the route that picks up Demon's Kiss + Precision Strikes sims ahead of the other route.

[pies1]

The Icy Veins guide says you're headed in the right direction. The link you gave shows you're headed right down path 1.
http://www.icy-veins.com/wow/subtlet...-traits-relics
Unless the guide is dated, Akaari's Soul is your first dps increase you want to seek out. I was actually considering a re-spec to the route you're taking.

The google doc guide suggests going bottom first down to finality.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...xQKvU/preview#

[Kwakman]

I have a question: how do you guys handle what I have come to call 'the draught' 2/2,5 minutes into a fight. Ive used all my Dance charges, used the active when needed and shadowblades during my first burst window. When Vanish off cooldown I just find myself using Backstab not to cap on energy and having to use 3 Finishers without and Dance charges ready.

Should I wait on Shadow Blades to keep the Shadow Dance charges going? So like Dance Dane Dance , Blades and build up Dance charges and go from there or pop everything at once?

[uniquesnowflakename]

His route is actually optimal since ideally we want to skip the shield trait. The bottom route just picks up a lot more damage traits quicker but it will always be a trait behind in the long term due to taking that shield trait. I considered re-doing it his way for that reason but I figured the shield might be semi-useful in pvp.

I would keep your spec but head for finality first and then back for akaari, since although akaari is more damage, the energy refund trait before finality is really good.

Is icyvein's or stjern's artifact route better?