[Restoration] How good (or bad) is Germination

[Laurathansal]

Hi all, thanks for the comments.

I had a chance of trying out Spring Blossoms on last night's raid (we cleared EN and did Nythendra Hc after).

My healing throughput felt better, mostly because I got more used to the fights. Spring Blossoms accounted for only 3-4% of my healing, whereas Efflorescence was my 4th best heal with around 7-8%.

Still, the rotation felt a lot better. I definitely feel Germination isn't made for raids (especially with more than 10 people), as it simply consumes too much GCD's and time overall, not to mention mana.

I'm left wondering whether Inner Peace might be better in progress runs though. Every time I use Tranq, It feels like I'm saving the raid from certain death. Granted, my raiding team isn't the best at avoiding damage

THis has been a great discussion really. Thanks all for the help!

[haniburr]

..
Open world - Why are you in resto spec? Get out...

Easier to pull 10 things and let dots tick them down while you spam heal yourself than trying to AOE 10 things in Cat or Boomy and some people just don't like bear? Resto Druid can tank like... 99% of the stuff in the world and whittle it down with dots while keeping self up, few exceptions are some of the DANGER world quest's that start off at liek 40M HP. Hell grab a balance affinity and you are able to put out some(bad) but passable dps in world content.

Hi all, thanks for the comments.

I had a chance of trying out Spring Blossoms on last night's raid (we cleared EN and did Nythendra Hc after).

My healing throughput felt better, mostly because I got more used to the fights. Spring Blossoms accounted for only 3-4% of my healing, whereas Efflorescence was my 4th best heal with around 7-8%.

Still, the rotation felt a lot better. I definitely feel Germination isn't made for raids (especially with more than 10 people), as it simply consumes too much GCD's and time overall, not to mention mana.

I'm left wondering whether Inner Peace might be better in progress runs though. Every time I use Tranq, It feels like I'm saving the raid from certain death. Granted, my raiding team isn't the best at avoiding damage

THis has been a great discussion really. Thanks all for the help!

Ya hard to tell people what is better, its more of a feel thing. Not all of us have the same raid set up and what have you. Glad you feel like your doing better!

[Alltat]

Open world - Why are you in resto spec? Get out.
Dungeons - Germination is by far the best option as you can easily sustain the mana and GCD's to double rejuv and it provides much better throughput overall.
Raids (Tank Healing) - Why are you tank healing? Get out! Germination is acceptable here although your being largely wasted as a tank healer.
Raids (Raid Healing) - Germination is typically a poor choice. You likely won't have the mana or GCD's to double rejuv.

Accurate, but could use some clarification:

Open world - Why are you in resto spec? Get out.
Normal & heroic dungeons - Germination is very nice. Spring Blossoms lets you AFK more. Inner Peace for decoration. Doesn't matter.
Mythic Dungeons - Germination wins easily, because you actually need the extra healing on everyone and can't stand still.
Raids (Tank Healing) - Tank healing hasn't been a dedicated job since Lich King. You're bad and your guild is bad. Stop being bad.
Raids (Raid Healing, 10-15 man) - Germination might have some use on normal if it's always the same few people screwing up. On heroic/mythic, those people will just die.
Raids (Raid Healing, 15-30 man) - There are just so many people you could cast Rejuvenation on that Germination doesn't do anything.

[chunx0r]

I have found in my mythic+
3 melee: Spring blossom
2 melee: Kind of a toss up
1 melee or less: Germination

[Tokkai]

Tearstone of Elune dropped yesterday and I'm clueless, if it's justifies taking Germination in a 15-20 man raid. Depending on dmg-patterns and WG-cd, players who would receive WG often already have a RJ in them. Thus the chance for an additional RJ would be wasted and just adds a few seconds, respectively.

I hate how much rng is tied to WG...

[Tiberria]

Tearstone of Elune dropped yesterday and I'm clueless, if it's justifies taking Germination in a 15-20 man raid. Depending on dmg-patterns and WG-cd, players who would receive WG often already have a RJ in them. Thus the chance for an additional RJ would be wasted and just adds a few seconds, respectively.

I hate how much rng is tied to WG...

What RNG is tied to WG? It's back to being a pure smart heal now, and will always heal the lowest health targets within the radius. Unless you are casting it on targets in the middle of nowhere or something, it's going to hit 6 targets in any reasonable raid situation.

[Cheze]

germination is a useful choice if your raid needs a tank healer (i.e. your holy paladin is off that night), or in smaller raids where healing needs are more focused in general. In larger raids it doesn't offer an efficiency gain comparable to spring blossoms or inner peace. We already have more GCDs available than we can sustainably use for rejuvs... so why would you take a talent that basically just lets you spam more rejuvs?

in m+ it's pretty much the only choice imo, though

[Leaful]

Yeah only run Germ for 5man stuff

[Tokkai]

What RNG is tied to WG? It's back to being a pure smart heal now, and will always heal the lowest health targets within the radius. Unless you are casting it on targets in the middle of nowhere or something, it's going to hit 6 targets in any reasonable raid situation.

Dreamwalker, Pota, the legendary

[Nyel]

Tearstone of Elune dropped yesterday and I'm clueless, if it's justifies taking Germination in a 15-20 man raid. Depending on dmg-patterns and WG-cd, players who would receive WG often already have a RJ in them. Thus the chance for an additional RJ would be wasted and just adds a few seconds, respectively.

I hate how much rng is tied to WG...

My question would be how does the effect work. Does it apply a Germination Rejuvenation as well? Does it apply more than one Rejuvenation, could it potentially place a RJ on every target hit by WG? Does anyone know how this affects the golden traits in G'hanir? For Power of the Archdruid, does the rejuvenation cast from the ring also have a 20% chance to apply to the other targets? Does the rejuvenation also get affected by Dreamwalker?

[MegaVolti]

Dungeons - Germination is by far the best option as you can easily sustain the mana and GCD's to double rejuv and it provides much better throughput overall.

No, absolutely not. I have to insist: This is mathematically wrong. See the napkin math in my previous post.

The GCD used on double Rejuv does NOT provide more throughput. It provides LESS throughput.
Even with only a single player standing in Efflo the combination of Spring Blossoms + GCD spent on *something else that's not Rejuv* is more throughput than taking Germination and spending that GCD on a Germination Rejuv.

[Weissrolf]

I tried Spring Blossoms in a mythic dungeon, it did about 5% of my overal healing, being more or less on the level of Yseras gift. In the end the choice of Germination is not so much one of throughput, but of utility. On a single target 2x Rejuvenation is stronger than 1x Rejuv + Blossoms, which usually ends up being the tank and the odd group member in trouble.

[Alltat]

Even with only a single player standing in Efflo the combination of Spring Blossoms + GCD spent on *something else that's not Rejuv* is more throughput than taking Germination and spending that GCD on a Germination Rejuv.

What else are you going to cast, though? The only spamable spells that you aren't using already are Regrowth and Healing Touch. RG is too expensive to spam, and both spells require you to stand still, which isn't really something you can afford to do a lot these days. Germination has the benefit of being castable while moving.

[Tiberria]

No, absolutely not. I have to insist: This is mathematically wrong. See the napkin math in my previous post.

The GCD used on double Rejuv does NOT provide more throughput. It provides LESS throughput.
Even with only a single player standing in Efflo the combination of Spring Blossoms + GCD spent on *something else that's not Rejuv* is more throughput than taking Germination and spending that GCD on a Germination Rejuv.

Mathematical theorycrafting and min-maxing in a 5 man is mostly useless, because the reality is that you don't need anywhere near your theoretical maximum throughput. What is important is burst and controllable output when needed, because you should be contributing DPS in most mythic+ groups wherever possible. Germination just works better because it gives you more single target output on tanks or other targets that are getting trucked when you NEED it. In a 5 man, it doesn't matter that Spring Blossoms is more theoretical throughput, because it's wasted 90%+ of the time. I don't think anyone disagrees with you that using Germination for raiding is a terrible idea, but in 5 mans, theoretical maximum throughput is 100% irrelevant.

[Myrrar]

There really is no debate between the talents in mythic+ because it's going to completely change based on your comp, which one you're doing, what level you're doing, and your affixes.

Only you know what your mana is going to be like based on what you're doing. Only you know if efflo is going to be used enough to make sb worth it. Only you know if your gcds should be used on extra healing or extra dps. The argument isn't really useful because both talents are viable.

Be smart and adjust.

[Polarthief]

I still have doubts about swapping SotF for germination, people tend to drop pretty low which makes germination look like a pretty solid choice.

??? SotF and Germination are on separate tiers. Are you referring to Cultivation instead?

Germination is top talent for mythic+. Couldnt tell which one is best for raid.

True, though having tranq on a lower cooldown is always helpful as well. SB is pretty bad in M+ for sure.

[Inci]

As others have said. Germination is amazing in 5 mans but bad in raids.

I 2nd that.

[Hypasonic]

Thinking about going with germination for our kill of spider boss tomorrow. Don't need the 2m tranq there and even though spring blossoms is nice, it doesn't do anything for the people with the poison debuffs, the tornados during the pushback and the tanks getting smacked all over the shop. Sacrificing overall thoughput to increase thoughput on certain people in a raid is usually always better.

[Alltat]

Thinking about going with germination for our kill of spider boss tomorrow. Don't need the 2m tranq there and even though spring blossoms is nice, it doesn't do anything for the people with the poison debuffs, the tornados during the pushback and the tanks getting smacked all over the shop. Sacrificing overall thoughput to increase thoughput on certain people in a raid is usually always better.

It's not that much of a throughput increase on those targets. It's one Rejuvenation cast per person. I think using Spring Blossoms to not have to care so much about the rest of the raid is more useful.

But try it. That's what the talents are for. They're easy to switch out and experiment with.

[Deleted]

??? SotF and Germination are on separate tiers. Are you referring to Cultivation instead?

Oops, no clue how I got those mixed up. Yes I meant cultivation.