His rebirth will be the story of your redemption.

[DesoPL]

In the end, the denizens of Azeroth and Outland came to exact their vengeance upon Illidan. Though you did not strike a blow against him, you were complicit in his fall.

I showed you Illidan's life so that you would understand why he fought and made the choices that he made. Yours was the vessel that needed preparation.

If the hatred and doubt in your heart has subsided, take your place at the side of the Light. Soon I will call upon you as we begin the hunt for Illidan's soul.

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=44496/destiny-unfulfilled

Did i miss anything? Or this quest was special for healers?

[KaPe]

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=44496/destiny-unfulfilled

Did i miss anything? Or this quest was special for healers?

It's probably the version for people who didn't kill Illidan on that character. So yeah, even those who weren't raiding Black Temple are guilty, because Xe'ra says so. They should have somehow intervened - even if they were, say, enslaved by the Lich King and only broke free afterwards - and stopped those evil murderers from harming her boyfriend.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Only Demon Hunters are exempt from Xe'ra judgement. She doesn't even berate them for chosing Altruis over Kayne, since the former *dared* to doubt some of Lord Illidan's choices. You'd that she'd pick on that one, but no. Demon Hunters are all great, not like all those evil "heroes" who spent years saving the world.

[Stormdash]

Lorewise, DKs and monks should and Worgen/Goblin/Pandaren characters should get some third version of this silliness -- all of these came in after Black Temple.

[Clone]

I am sick of this Illidan dick riding.

[Wildmoon]

What funny is I have seen people with the idea that Illidan had good intention all along. I am just confused how they came to that consclusion from the earlier accounts of lore before the novel "Illidan". I mean what the hell? you must have insane skill at reading between the lines or some epic headcanon.

I mean this is the guy who in the original WotA was willing to hand his world and his people straight to the legion just because he did not want his magic gone and was jealous of his brother.

No, it was not only Illidan's actions that was bad. His intention often was too. Before the novel of course.

[Stormdash]

The novel hardly made Illidan's intentions pure and golden, it's more like it made his decisions over the course of the expansion rational and coherent. He is doing mostly rotten shit in BC, the novel didn't absolve him of that. "Legion" may be trying to; Illidan did not.

[Easo]

Redeem? Me?
This part realy did piss me off. I usually love the storyline, but not in this case. There is a line in doing bad things, after which someone can't come back.
I am pretty sure Illidan crossed that line, and we had to stop him. Not guilty of anything. Damn windchime...

[Deleted]

So i completed the Illidan storyline on live now, though i had to put myself through this rather painful questchain, the finale just blew me away.

Not the Illidan fight, no, the completion questtext for a character that killed Illidan. (The questtext is different for DH and character that did not kill Illidan)



http://www.wowhead.com/quest=44481/destiny-unfulfilled

Personally, i couldn't stand Xe'ra and this Illidan praise, yet the final sentence just takes the cake.

So the story Legion concerning Illidan is not about him, but rather we have to redeem ourselves because we killed him.

So Illidan moves from a grey character, to a pure villain, to the ultimate good in the Universe that we foolishly killed while our hearts and minds were corrupted by hatred.

I don't have any issues with the player character not being the ultimate hero all the time, but this is just awful.

I disliked the questchain as well, i like illidan and its view of greater good, but blizzard is too lopsided in story telling that it comes over very wrong like propaganda scary style or something, hard to describe (maybe lack in faith in blizzard able to do this nuance).

The ending was bad as well. I get that we had anger or hatred towards Illidan and we needed to see Illidan's perspective. But we weren't wrong to kill him, their were good reason for it so theirs no need for us to be redeemed, who is being corrupted by hatred now X'era?!
And the visions really didn't portray Illidan in how X'era is idolizing Illidan. The only good thing that it showed us is that he is still fighting for Azeroth and Tyrande but that he has a petty personality. Hell even in the last vision Illidan says that he should have killed all the broken instead of working with them.
Basically Illidan still fights for Azeroth and Tyrande, but as soon as doubt is being cast on him he goes of in a tantrum.

Also didn't our Pandaria experience help cleanse us of our anger, or atleast have it not influence us negatively? And their players were also annoyed by the pandaren / celestial arrogance.

======================================
Also their are so many stupid lore mistakes that are minor. In the illidan story for example:"
- Illidan's golden eyes, showed as something special and being different than malfurion. Later on you see them having the same coloured eyes and seeing other night elves having golden eyes in other animations.
- The vision Sargeras gives to Illidan about the endless legion armies that arn't on Azeroth. It shows satyrs as one of the armies despite them only excisting on Azeroth.

I liked the Blackrook Hold vision the most though. That was pretty good one. Also had a warcraft 3 rts feel to it.

I havn't seen any mayor Lore Retcons aside from things being based on stuff players generally don't like. But i've never seen so many small ones that even contradict eachother in the same questchain or zone.

[Crashen]

Even the Demon Hunter text is condescending. "You served your master well! We will reunite you with your master again! You are the best lapdog ever! Whos a good boy? Whos a goos boy?"

Seriously, she talks down to the DH as if they are Illidan's pet.

[KaPe]

Even the Demon Hunter text is condescending. "You served your master well! We will reunite you with your master again! You are the best lapdog ever! Whos a good boy? Whos a goos boy?"

Seriously, she talks down to the DH as if they are Illidan's pet.

That's because Illidan has sacrificed everything, what have you given?

You're just there playing pretend leader until Illidan comes back, pats you on the back and takes over.

[Combatbutler]

Even the Demon Hunter text is condescending. "You served your master well! We will reunite you with your master again! You are the best lapdog ever! Whos a good boy? Whos a goos boy?"

Seriously, she talks down to the DH as if they are Illidan's pet.

The demon hunters are loyal servants, especially the pc even if people choose altruis it doesn't change the fact that they themselves are utterly loyal towards him. The very first thing you did was slaughter wardens because they killed your beloved master.

[Deleted]

The novel hardly made Illidan's intentions pure and golden, it's more like it made his decisions over the course of the expansion rational and coherent. He is doing mostly rotten shit in BC, the novel didn't absolve him of that. "Legion" may be trying to; Illidan did not.

That's whhy Illidan was good. Because it let us, the reader, question whether we think Illidans actions are justified or not. I, for example, am more an Maievs Side. Illidan had good intentions, that's something nobody other than Maiev could deny, but his actions were far beyond excuses. He had to answer for his crimes.

[Deleted]

I think the Xe'ra is so far out of our perspective that it has no other way of thinking about us. It can only care for the Light vs Dark fight and to preserve the light. Maybe for Xe'ra that is the right approach, because if we have things that only work for the voidlords and for them to consume everything, we'd better have some things on the side of the light too, that are equally zealous.

But we mortal beings, beings made of this universe that is in existence at the moment, we want to preserve our space and time. Our lives, we want to fight not only for the light to still be there in a universe to come, but for this one. And for that we cannot all turn into zealots that sacrifice everything and everyone. We have to keep a balance. Something that probably doesn't matter much for a being like Xe'ra, because it sees that balance on a completely different scale, but it must matter to us. If we fight in a way that leaves nothing behind, what are we fighting for then? If some of us choose to give up everything for the greater cause, even whole worlds, that may be something that is neccesary on a grander scale. We can thank them for their sacrifices, but I don't think it would help much if everybody now chooses that path. That would be like throwing all of your people into a war in order to win it. What have you won afterwards? Soldiers sacrifice a lot and get thanked little, but they fight so others can be safe, not because they want everybody to throw everything away and do the same thing they do. A king or a tyrant may see that a little different, because he/she might be waging a war just to keep their power. Maybe even because they think that another person in power would harm their country/their people. That's the kind of approach I think Xe'ra is taking and as Xe'ra itself has stated that giving it's body to Illidan is it's last service to the Light, I guess it knows that it is quite close to the Void already. Being overly zealous just turns you very easily into something you were fighting before in WoW.

[Stormdash]

That's whhy Illidan was good. Because it let us, the reader, question whether we think Illidans actions are justified or not. I, for example, am more an Maievs Side. Illidan had good intentions, that's something nobody other than Maiev could deny, but his actions were far beyond excuses. He had to answer for his crimes.

Between the two, I thought Maiev was a lot less honest with herself about her own biases. Like that she had any at all. Most of her allies, nominally friends, died for absolutely nothing. Even at the end, with Akama just "yeah, okay, whatever" dismissing her assertions, she was still assuming Illidan meant to summon the Legion or to run away and join them. Can never trust the conclusions, or the intentions, of someone who has lost the thread that badly.

But yeah, Illidan falling at BT was completely justified from the perspective of anyone that had a hand in it... probably with the exception of Maiev, because she was so wrong about why he had to fall. I mean, exploiting and sacrificing the Broken, defiling their holy places, corrupting and controlling Orcs with Mag's blood no better than Gul'dan, no better than Gul'dan, and the schemes of his allies like Vash'j water monopoly scheme... that's all pretty epic evil overlord shit. It offended me when I did that scenario on my Paladin (no class more IMO) and had the Light via Xe'ra take the pure moral consequentialist position that Illidan is okay to treat one world like the Legion would, just so he can stop the Legion from doing it to others. Why is MU Draenor/Outland just supposed to be fate's bitch in all this?

[Deleted]

Between the two, I thought Maiev was a lot less honest with herself about her own biases. Like that she had any at all. Most of her allies, nominally friends, died for absolutely nothing. Even at the end, with Akama just "yeah, okay, whatever" dismissing her assertions, she was still assuming Illidan meant to summon the Legion or to run away and join them. Can never trust the conclusions, or the intentions, of someone who has lost the thread that badly.

Her hate against Illidan is still quite understandable. Maiev was the one who saw the worst atrocities of Illidan Stormrage. She was the one who lost the most to him. But yeah, she was lying to herself. She was telling herself that what she did was for Justice, while all she wanted was Vengeance. But we shouldn't also forget that Illidan has worked for the Legion a couple of times in the past. From her point of view, Illidan was not to be trusted and it was the sanest always assume the worst of him. And in the end, her failure was the same as Illidans, she failed to see the bigger picture. But that's part of what made King one of the best Warcraft autors in ages: His characters act and think in a very subjective way. Their point of view is not to be trusted. Maiev was, for me, a good and likeable protagonist because she was everything but perfect, just like Illidan, Akama and Vandel.

But yeah, Illidan falling at BT was completely justified from the perspective of anyone that had a hand in it... probably with the exception of Maiev, because she was so wrong about why he had to fall. I mean, exploiting and sacrificing the Broken, defiling their holy places, corrupting and controlling Orcs with Mag's blood no better than Gul'dan, no better than Gul'dan, and the schemes of his allies like Vash'j water monopoly scheme... that's all pretty epic evil overlord shit. It offended me when I did that scenario on my Paladin (no class more IMO) and had the Light via Xe'ra take the pure moral consequentialist position that Illidan is okay to treat one world like the Legion would, just so he can stop the Legion from doing it to others. Why is MU Draenor/Outland just supposed to be fate's bitch in all this?

Illidans part was interesting, because the reader has to decide weither Illidans actions are justified or not, depending on their personal values, biases and opinions they want to transmit into their view of the story. Like, I'm pretty biased in the way that I don't give a damn about what he did to the Orcs, but more about his sacrifices if elven and draenei Souls. Others may think the opposite. And I don't like the Xe'ra stuff neither and hope that she turns out to be a more sinister and morally grey character. To be honest, I hate the concept of some absolute divine moralistic authority to begin with. Because if we are honest, morals are not something for the divine to decide. Morals are the system of mortals, they have to live under this system, they are the only once who have the right to decide what they consider right or wrong, because they have to live with the consequences of this decisions. Xe'ra doesn't have to live with this consequences, she is not affected by the things Illidan did so she has not the slightest right to decide weither we should accept that or not. The world of mortals is the world of our characters. They have to live in this world, they have their lives, their beloved ones, everything in this world, so they have also the right to decide what kind of world Azeroth and the cosmos should be, a world of peace, a world of war or a world where both exists. It's up to them to decide weither everything they go through, everything they suffer for, everything they sacrifice has a meaning or not. It's up to them to decide what they want to sacrifice or not. Illidan made his decision, he had the right to do so, because he could and because he is a mortal being who has to live with the consequences of all of his decisions. Whe made our decision. I hope that Blizzard will, at some day, take the councept of an age of mortals seriously. The Age of mortals shouldn't only mean that we have to defend our world ourselves: It should mean that the world is, in every way possible, in our hands, that we are the ones who have the right to give it meaning, to establish values and morals, to decide how this world should be. Especially the way of the Light should find it's completion in the dying of all divine autorities: In Classic WoW, the Light was a non-theistic religion and that's what it should become again: A Religion were oneself has to decide, how the World should be and deepen his connection to the light, to the universe, to accomplish their vision. Because that means to take responsibility for ones actions. Divine authorities take away this responsibility and with that, a great part of what makes mortals free willed beings.

I want to be honest: If I could, if Blizzard would give me the freedom of choice for my Paladin, I would do it the Major-Like and say to Xe'ra: To hell with you. What's mine is mine alone. Mein Herz, meine Seele, mein Leben (in english, My heart, my soul, my life). All of my decisions are mine and mine alone. Its not up to her to decide if I need redemption. If she wants to make it her decision, than she should come and get me. Do it the Way we mortals have to. Take Vengeance against me, let me suffer for what she considered a sin, hit me, kill me, crush me under her Justice, force me to bend my knee under her morals and give me the victory of proving my point, that God, Naaru, Titan, Elune are only another words for Tyrant. I would never apologize for doing what I considered right: bringing down a tyrant, giving the people of Outland back their freedom and do things my way.

[mizeri]

why dont we just kill xera and hand over azaroth to sargaras, i mean he wants to destroy it all for the greater good doesnt he? i mean compared to illidan sargaras is the real hero here, he is just doing the dirty work that everyone is just to weak to do, all to save the universe from the voidlords

[Stormdash]

I don't know what my bigger problem with the end of Xe'ra's first quest chain was -- A) the aforementioned moral consequentialism from a source that should in principle be Lawful Good (and therefore about as far from consequentialism as can be), or B) the way she gets to just presume upon our characters' motivation. My characters have never done Black Temple under the pretense of hatred or anger at Illidan, but as you say -- to protect those who his actions were harming.

[Deleted]

I don't know what my bigger problem with the end of Xe'ra's first quest chain was -- A) the aforementioned moral consequentialism from a source that should in principle be Lawful Good (and therefore about as far from consequentialism as can be), or B) the way she gets to just presume upon our characters' motivation. My characters have never done Black Temple under the pretense of hatred or anger at Illidan, but as you say -- to protect those who his actions were harming.

Go one step farther, to be smarter than the immortal divine Naaru: There is and never was Justice without hatred or anger. We consider things evil, we condemn things because we feel offended by them. Because we feel empathy towards the people who have to suffer through this actions and feel angry for this suffering. So yeah, we hated Illidan. So what? We hated him for what he did. We hated him for all those enslaved Broken, for the atrocities commited by his henchmen, for the evil and injustice we saw everywhere in his empire. We hated him the same way we hated Arthas and his Scourge, Deathwing and his Twilight's Hammer, the burning Legion: Because we can imagine all the suffering we can't simply excuse. After all, the whole offensive Part of the Light is build upon the concept of righteous anger: And if we want to define righteous anger, the most objective way would probably be anger caused by our capacity to feel affection and empathy for others.

[Zulkhan]

I'm starting to believe that Xe'ra's riding of Illidan's dick is somewhat intended. At this point, is just excessively remarked and seems to enlighten an obvious discrepancy between the morals of "mere" mortal beings, the ones that actually endure shit, and some holiest windchimes that know everything about everyone's feelings yet they experience nothing themselves.

Do you want me to be freed of hatred? Gotcha, that's fine. Now start telling how Illidan messed up by being a self-centered prick.

[Kralljin]

http://www.wowhead.com/quest=44496/destiny-unfulfilled

Did i miss anything? Or this quest was special for healers?

It's the version if you did not kill Illidan on a character.

You're being scolded for leveling in Outland basically, or being allied with people who killed Illidan.