Is AMR's gearing tool and it's simming tool accurate and trustworthy?

[Cover25]

Pretty much title. I've read people saying it's wrong and that a dev was trash talking simC (It was about a rake bug or something?).

[Woobels]

Depends on class I'd imagine.

Mage one is fairly accurate.

[Zoopercat]

Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Our simulator is very accurate, but you don't have to take my word on it. All of the spell mechanics are open source on our wiki: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory

When you run a simulation report, all of the spells link to the wiki as well, in case something seems off, it's easy to look into. And of course, hit me up so we can look into it if you are wondering why something is happening or if something is correct. Any bugs are fixed within 24 hours (or less).

SimC is a great tool They don't have people designated to testing, so bugs often take a while to surface. We find a lot of them and report them to the devs so they can fix them right away. We work closely with a lot of the SimC people including the main guy on the project.

The more accurate both are, the better off the community is

[Deleted]

Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Our simulator is very accurate, but you don't have to take my word on it. All of the spell mechanics are open source on our wiki: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory

When you run a simulation report, all of the spells link to the wiki as well, in case something seems off, it's easy to look into. And of course, hit me up so we can look into it if you are wondering why something is happening or if something is correct. Any bugs are fixed within 24 hours (or less).

SimC is a great tool They don't have people designated to testing, so bugs often take a while to surface. We find a lot of them and report them to the devs so they can fix them right away. We work closely with a lot of the SimC people including the main guy on the project.

The more accurate both are, the better off the community is

Hello, thank you very much for your response.
We have similar concerns in Shaman forums - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Stat-Priority
We are trying to figure out most exact stat weights and also which trinkets are better.

This is taken from one post in there:

Simulationcraft: Agi > Haste > Mastery > Vers > Crit

Agility: 10.89
Haste: 9.00
Mastery: 8.32
Vers: 7.71
Crit: 7.11

AMR: Mastery > Agility > Haste > Vers > Crit

Agility: 9.83
Haste: 8.86
Mastery: 10.12
Vers: 7.06
Crit: 6.91

As you can see, these differences can have big influence on gear choices.
If you can bring some light into this conversation, and maybe explain why are these weights different, it would be much appreciated.
We are also very interested in best way how to measure (sim) your trinkets?

[xpose]

If you don't understand how stat weights work then using an addon is just going to lead you down the wrong path.

[Ryethe]

Hello, thank you very much for your response.
We have similar concerns in Shaman forums - http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...-Stat-Priority
We are trying to figure out most exact stat weights and also which trinkets are better.

This is taken from one post in there:

Simulationcraft: Agi > Haste > Mastery > Vers > Crit

Agility: 10.89
Haste: 9.00
Mastery: 8.32
Vers: 7.71
Crit: 7.11

AMR: Mastery > Agility > Haste > Vers > Crit

Agility: 9.83
Haste: 8.86
Mastery: 10.12
Vers: 7.06
Crit: 6.91

As you can see, these differences can have big influence on gear choices.
If you can bring some light into this conversation, and maybe explain why are these weights different, it would be much appreciated.
We are also very interested in best way how to measure (sim) your trinkets?

Stat weights are personal. Each point in one stat makes other stats more useful per point. Furthermore, effects like trinket procs can have a huge impact on stat weights. eg. If you have two nature damage trinkets as enh, your mastery weight will go through the roof because your mastery buffs those two items. There are certain cases where people are sufficiently maelstrom starved (which should be rare but can happen in certain gear extremes) and haste picks up value or they can't chew through procs fast enough, so haste picks up value.

The main thing to take away is that you should never trust other people's stat weights, you should always sim your own. On caveat, if you get an item, sim it rather than rely on stat weights. Stat weights are for adding raw stats to what you already have whereas new items can reduce 1 or 2 stats and raise 1 or 2 more. This can produce cases where your weights tell you an item is better but equipping and simming shows its worse.

My working rule of thumb for armor, which has yet to fail me in the sim, is 5 ilvls is an upgrade always for big slots (chest, legs, helm) and 10ilvl is an upgrade for small slots (boots, belt, etc), and rings/necks need mastery and stat weights due to the lack of primary stat.

[Solial]

There are no static stat weights. Your stat weights will change based on what your current stats are. If you have only your "best two" stats on every piece of gear, the value of the other two will be higher. I'm not saying the stats will be better than your best two, but they will have a higher value.

For classes with close stat weights, you generally want to keep them together. An example would be something like this "MADE UP NUMBERS"

Main Stat: 20,000 Value: 10
Crit: 6k Value 8
Haste: 6k Value 8
Mastery: 6k Value 8
Vers: 0 Value 6

Then if you changed your stats around to something like

Main Stat: 20,000 Value: 10
Crit: 9k Value 7
Haste: 4.5k Value 9
Mastery: 4.5k Value 9
Vers: 0 Value 5.5

Something like that might happen. Make sure to sim your character every once in awhile to make sure you have the correct stat weights based off your CURRENT gear.

[Echocho]

What if I have an item with mastery and another with haste. When I sim with the haste one it says that the mastery one is a 1% upgrade and when I sim with the mastery one it says the haste one is a 1% upgrade?

[Deleted]

Guys, I appreciate your replies, but you completely misunderstood me.
Maybe I wasnt clear enough.

I know how stat weights work

I posted this guys weights to point out that AMR and Simcraft gave him very different values.
He was using same gear (his current) for both simulations.

I hope you get my concern now (same gear, different weights):
Simulationcraft: Agi > Haste > Mastery > Vers > Crit
AMR: Mastery > Agility > Haste > Vers > Crit

2nd issue we are having is about trinkets, as we are receiving, again, very different results.
For example with this one - Spontaneous Appendages
In simulation it shows that it is only about 2-3% of dmg, however it was tested and proven (ingame) that this trinkets proc/ability (physical dmg) can proc our stormbringer ability (enha shaman). So this is actually better than simulation shows.
This is just one example. Other trinkets are/should scale with our mastery and we can only guess if this is also part of simulations.

[ThePants999]

What if I have an item with mastery and another with haste. When I sim with the haste one it says that the mastery one is a 1% upgrade and when I sim with the mastery one it says the haste one is a 1% upgrade?

Then you're at a point where mastery and haste have basically the same value, and it doesn't matter which one you use.

[Solial]

SimC has appendages undervalued by about 33% atm. Not sure about every trinket. If both sites, with the same gear (without weird proc trinkets) show different results, make sure to also check fight duration, number of targets, movement, if you're using perfect play. If they still show diffrent results than one, or both are wrong.

[Drutt]

Stat weights are personal. Each point in one stat makes other stats more useful per point. Furthermore, effects like trinket procs can have a huge impact on stat weights. eg. If you have two nature damage trinkets as enh, your mastery weight will go through the roof because your mastery buffs those two items. There are certain cases where people are sufficiently maelstrom starved (which should be rare but can happen in certain gear extremes) and haste picks up value or they can't chew through procs fast enough, so haste picks up value.

The main thing to take away is that you should never trust other people's stat weights, you should always sim your own. On caveat, if you get an item, sim it rather than rely on stat weights. Stat weights are for adding raw stats to what you already have whereas new items can reduce 1 or 2 stats and raise 1 or 2 more. This can produce cases where your weights tell you an item is better but equipping and simming shows its worse.

My working rule of thumb for armor, which has yet to fail me in the sim, is 5 ilvls is an upgrade always for big slots (chest, legs, helm) and 10ilvl is an upgrade for small slots (boots, belt, etc), and rings/necks need mastery and stat weights due to the lack of primary stat.

I'm not sure what this response has to do with the post you quoted.

Noremis specifically provided an example of sim results from both AMR and Simcraft that show vastly different stat weights for the same character.

He's asking for an explanation of why the results for Simcraft and AMR are so different, not what stat weights are. If you're simming yourself in two different tools and the info they're providing is significantly different, one tool is wrong (assuming they're not both wrong).

[Solial]

Then you're at a point where mastery and haste have basically the same value, and it doesn't matter which one you use.

Sim both, look at your theoretical damage and not your weights. Some stats can have equal value.

[Deleted]

not even in the slightest

[FenrizZJ]

I get quite different results as well comparing SimC and AMR on my rogue. Not sure which is accurate, but I've been going with SimC + Pawn.

SimC has Vers > Crit > Mastery > Haste
AMR has Mastery > Vers > Crit > Haste

[Djriff]

I know for shadow it's fairly inaccurate for StM, SiMC doesn't even handle StM that well unless you make a custom APL which took ~2 weeks of trial and error to get decent results.

Also you can't just run 1 simulation in 1 type of environment and get stat weights from that. Stat weights are a snapshot of a gear at a current level. From the sounds of it, people are doing 1 fight type, with 1 variable fight length, and not enough iterations. For SiMC I recommend 15k iterations, AMR doesn't let you set the amount which makes me not want to trust their stat weight generation. Addtionally you need to compare different talent setups and how they interact, fight lengths, targets, fight types, and lastly gear to find potential breakpoints.

Stat Weights are not something that can just be simplified into a 1 button push and be used as an accurate gearing strategy.

[MrExcelion]

Hey, I'm from Ask Mr. Robot. Our simulator is very accurate, but you don't have to take my word on it. All of the spell mechanics are open source on our wiki: http://www.askmrrobot.com/wow/theory

When you run a simulation report, all of the spells link to the wiki as well, in case something seems off, it's easy to look into. And of course, hit me up so we can look into it if you are wondering why something is happening or if something is correct. Any bugs are fixed within 24 hours (or less).

SimC is a great tool They don't have people designated to testing, so bugs often take a while to surface. We find a lot of them and report them to the devs so they can fix them right away. We work closely with a lot of the SimC people including the main guy on the project.

The more accurate both are, the better off the community is

Hi @Zoopercat! Is there a way to export the current gear set to SimC? On the old site it was I hit Optimize then I'd see an export button. Spent a while trying to find it but I don't think the option is there or I'm just blind lol. Thanks

[Zoopercat]

It is not there right now. It's on our list of things to add in In the meantime, I know there are a few guides on there on how to fiddle with the code in SimC to set up your gear.

[Echocho]

Then you're at a point where mastery and haste have basically the same value, and it doesn't matter which one you use.

Alright. I've sort of gotten stuck in this situation that whenever I sim other pieces of gear in my bags are marked as upgrades and when I equip those and Sim again other pieces are marked as upgrades and so on and so forth. I can't seem to get to a point where all my gear in my bags are worse than the ones I have equipped.

[Zoopercat]

Hey, I'm will get back to you all on the diff's between SimC and AMR.

One quick correction @Djriff: When you run a simulation you want to target the margin of error - the number of iterations doesn't really mean much, since 15,000 can get you to 0.1% on one character or class, but 0.25% on another. For stat weights, you can set the margin of error, btw. So you can customize it to be a lower one if you'd like

Also, what makes you think S2M is broken in AMR? I know swol updated the rotation a bit, but the spell was never broken. I know SimC had some troubles, not sure if they fixed that yet or not.