Mythic raiding has lost its fun

[Cynikaly]

Your hate for people that don't play 24/7 is no reason to make the game worse. Competition has to be fair. It would be like going to the Olympics and demanding 200 tries because "you have more time" and you call "weekend warriors" those that have only the right 3 tries.

So, stop flame baiting with "weekend warrior" and think what you are saying. You want to turn the competition into shit.

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That's bullshit. It's not about your personal advantages when they say that. It's about the competition. The competition turns to shit when you have people that play 24/7 7 days a week have considerable advantages over those that play even for hours a day. This isn't a small thing. This is a serious concern even of the top end guilds! It's not just the AP, it's also the legendaries and other gearing. This is something that makes those that play even for 4 or 5 hours a day 7 days a week, which is already a lot have a considerable disadvantage over those playing 24/7. This is a severe drop on the quality of the competition.

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Your fallacy is real you mean. You do the classic forum mistake of assuming all people are the same person. It's different people that liked more grinding on WoD and it's different people that like less grinding on Legion.

And not only that. You do the mistake of assuming Legion has the exact right grinding recipe. Even if we assumed WoD has excessively low grinding, it doesn't mean Legion didn't overdo it!

In fact it's pretty clear that it did. We went from a game that had "done with every boring grind in half a day" to a game that is "I CAN"T STOP GETTING ADVANTAGES 24/7 7 DAYS A WEEK".

I didn't really analyze it as deeply as you did. I just let my thoughts run. I know that there's different people with different taste and subjective feeling towards it. That's also why we will never stop seeing threads that complain about something.

[lightofdawn]

It's just poorly designed as is most of Legion. It's tied to an exponentially increasing modifier making it clear that they intended for AP to be a time-gated thing. It's clear based on how long the research takes that they intend for people to be 35 points for NH and intended 25-27 in EN (you can do it slightly faster if you put in more time, but only by a point or two because your gain rate is linear within each AK level and the cost growth of them is always exponential). It would've made everything simpler to just put a global cap and make AP drop from everything like it does, but make it require only a few hours a week play time to catch up (so at 2 weeks the cap is X points and anyone can just go do some content to catch up) with linearly growing AP requirements or even constant requirements until the AA traits. It achieves the same thing: requires play time to grow your character and guarantees character growth over time. It also has the benefit of not leaving alts and new players mid expansion screwed (the 1 AK per day still has a negative effect after a few months into the expansion for anyone not maintaining the research).

The AP system and the Legendary RNG (+ TF) systems all make each other redundant. You don't need every character growth award in the game tied to just repeating more of the same boring/trivial content endlessly. That's ultimately what hurts this expansion the most. Players can be encouraged to play more without constructing an endless carrot/stick situation with diminishing returns. Just putting out more content alone would've sufficed for 99% of people. And this whole system has damaged mythic raiding because it shifts things even further away from raiding itself, furthering the damage of the negative decisions made in previous expansions (split difficulties, extremely powerful tier/trinkets, WF/sockets, etc).



Discrete is intro stuff, the good stuff is algebras and analytics (esp. algebraic geometry and functional analysis). I liked probability and statistics as well, but I found it hilarious that 90% of the class didn't understand the theory even though they were math majors.

nothing makes me happier than understanding an algorithm that a math major can't... although it doesnt happen too often because im not great at math. im in design/analysis of algorithms right now and everyone's freaking out

[Djriff]

I raid mythic, not that it really matters in the grand scheme. I still have fun doing it, although the ridiculous amount of sources of gear along with TF and legendary items has certainly taken away some of it's luster for me. I like the challenge.

[Deavane]

Mythic was cleared faster then ever. If you need more/better gear to beat the content then the problem is you. Not your gear.

Well it was cleared quickly because guilds had good gear before going into the instance. Raiders in general have never been more geared coming into a raid. Some people were sitting at 870 when the raid was released. That's 10 item levels short of what drops.

Moving into Trial and Nighthold, the ability to overgear the content won't be there. Mythic +s won't drop gear that is close in item level to what drops in Nighthold. I expect Nighthold to last considerably longer (Gul'dan dying somewhere in the second or third week probably). We'll see though.

[Trapped]

People forget that maxing out your artifact weapon, not just getting all 3 goldens, gives you a 5% damage increase per rank, up to 15% iirc. So for people that are min/maxers, not even necessarily "hardcore" players, will want to get that. People who have more time to play will have a noticeable advantage in the end.

I play a Marks Hunter, got my 3 golds, but I'm feeling really "meh" about filling out the rest of the traits (most are utility) to get to the 5% bonus. We have a crazy DK in our guild that is farming 90k AP a day lol.

[Finbezz]

People forget that maxing out your artifact weapon, not just getting all 3 goldens, gives you a 5% damage increase per rank, up to 15% iirc. So for people that are min/maxers, not even necessarily "hardcore" players, will want to get that. People who have more time to play will have a noticeable advantage in the end.

I play a Marks Hunter, got my 3 golds, but I'm feeling really "meh" about filling out the rest of the traits (most are utility) to get to the 5% bonus. We have a crazy DK in our guild that is farming 90k AP a day lol.

It's 15% damage increased over 20 ranks. Only the first point is worth anything because that's 5% by itself. The rest is filler that takes millions of AP for marginal gain.

[Kraineth]

That's just what people with bad ranks say LOL

Eh, there is a reason that a lot of top 100 guilds use private logs until they finish progression in each instance. Removing the warcraftlogs ranks from the equation means players are more accepting of behavior that is needed to kill a boss, rather than behavior aimed at parsing high.

How about you link your character? You seem to think you are a stellar player and think that having less time to play wow has hurt you in some way.

While I agree that the mythic+ grind hurt some guilds that didn't spend time outside of raids spamming the shit out of them, that imbalance is largely gone now. The gear benefits of mythic+ for mythic raiding guilds has largely died off. And AP gains have stagnated, as well as the actual benefits of the last 7 or so traits that most people have left.

Barring clearing a mythic+10 each week for the weekly chest, and a few trinket alternatives (that largely gets fixed in 7.1), there isn't a whole lot of value for a mythic raider to be spamming mythic dungeons much anymore.

[Deavane]

Eh, there is a reason that a lot of top 100 guilds use private logs until they finish progression in each instance. Removing the warcraftlogs ranks from the equation means players are more accepting of behavior that is needed to kill a boss, rather than behavior aimed at parsing high.

How about you link your character? You seem to think you are a stellar player and think that having less time to play wow has hurt you in some way.

While I agree that the mythic+ grind hurt some guilds that didn't spend time outside of raids spamming the shit out of them, that imbalance is largely gone now. The gear benefits of mythic+ for mythic raiding guilds has largely died off. And AP gains have stagnated, as well as the actual benefits of the last 7 or so traits that most people have left.

Barring clearing a mythic+10 each week for the weekly chest, and a few trinket alternatives (that largely gets fixed in 7.1), there isn't a whole lot of value for a mythic raider to be spamming mythic dungeons much anymore.

The only reason I would advise someone to still do them is for legendaries and AP. Seems by far the best way to acquire legendaries (more than one) is through mythic +s. Besides that though, if you have mythic gear, the benefit of spamming mythic +s in hopes that you'll 870s or higher is small. You need to run hundreds to get that kind of gear for most slots.

[Jotaux]

Eh, there is a reason that a lot of top 100 guilds use private logs until they finish progression in each instance. Removing the warcraftlogs ranks from the equation means players are more accepting of behavior that is needed to kill a boss, rather than behavior aimed at parsing high.

I kind of wish our guild would do this. It's extremely frustrating when people are raiding to parse and not to kill bosses.

[Saverem]

I disagree. I work full time / have outside commitments and still manage to raid two days a week and I don't hold back my team. I do a few M+ at the weekend and rarely do any world quests outside of the 4 dailies. I'm just shy of my 3rd golden so I'm unsure as to how you feel this way OP. You can definitely play casually and raid sufficiently IMO.

He said Mythic RAIDING, not M+. Mythic raiding is a whole other animal than M+ (unless you're doing M+10+).

But I agree in that you don't really need to farm AP for hours on end to be competitive. I'm at 23 MW and 20 WW AP on my Monk and she does just fine.


What I don't like are these ridiculous amounts of money I have to spend on flasks (and seals) every week.

[Deleted]

He said Mythic RAIDING, not M+. Mythic raiding is a whole other animal than M+ (unless you're doing M+10+).

But I agree in that you don't really need to farm AP for hours on end to be competitive. I'm at 23 MW and 20 WW AP on my Monk and she does just fine.


What I don't like are these ridiculous amounts of money I have to spend on flasks (and seals) every week.

I replied on the basis I'm a Mythic raider. M+ is one of the main ways to grind AP, hence why I mentioned it.

Not really sure about what point you're trying to make here.

[Azobank]

Once you get 21-22 traits how much AP you farm won't matter much. If you don't do high M+ for weekly chest loot you might fall a tiny bit behind.

I've farmed 1180766 AP which is 104 th on my server I got 27 traits in ms artifact. A player in my guild have farmed 468793 and got 24 traits in hiw MS artifact. I play disc outside the extra stamina the last 5 traits have close to 0 value for my throput. If I removed my last 5 poitns I wouldn't notice a difference in raid. It's imaginary that you need to farm AP 24/7 to be viable.

If you want to be the best sure AP farm 24/7 is probably needed but world race is over, train for beeing the best have left already. Having an extra trait or two at this point doesn't make or break your character.

[Coldvibes]

Just gotta keep spamming multi-chest keys for legendaries, great game

[Trapped]

It's 15% damage increased over 20 ranks. Only the first point is worth anything because that's 5% by itself. The rest is filler that takes millions of AP for marginal gain.

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up. But yeah, that 5% increase alone is still going to be a noticeable advantage versus people that don't grind every little AP they can get, and I think that was one of the points of the thread?

[Theholypally]

It use to be all about your skill, but now its all about how much time you spend grinding AP and mythic +.

I'm sorry Blizzard but unless you are in college or high school, nobody has time to be grinding this much every day.

You act like it takes a lot of time to do the AP quests, lfr, and wait for artifact knowledge.

"it used to be all about your skill" lol. Please tell us the time where your skill (and only YOUR skill...not the skill of your raid team) made your progression a breeze.

Seriously...time management...it helps. We have people who work full time too and they are still on top of their game in terms of their character progression because they manage their time well.

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He said Mythic RAIDING, not M+. Mythic raiding is a whole other animal than M+ (unless you're doing M+10+).

But I agree in that you don't really need to farm AP for hours on end to be competitive. I'm at 23 MW and 20 WW AP on my Monk and she does just fine.


What I don't like are these ridiculous amounts of money I have to spend on flasks (and seals) every week.

If you are mythic RAIDING you are doing mythic+ for AP.

Its that simple.

The consumable costs are a pain in the ass but if you are trying to progress in mythic and you aren't doing some farming of mythic+ (2-3 chest lower keys are golden not only for AP but for legendaries if youre lucky) then you aren't trying hard enough.

However its like a few hours of farming a couple of days a week? its not mindless grinding as some of the other people here whining make it out to be.

[Saverem]

If you are mythic RAIDING you are doing mythic+ for AP.

Its that simple.

Shit, then I'm doing something wrong. I'm at 3/7M and only do about 1 or 2 Mythic+ a week to get my weekly chest.

[Dikka]

You act like it takes a lot of time to do the AP quests, lfr, and wait for artifact knowledge.

It does take a lot of time. And all of that time is a waist.
Those activities are neither fun no challenging.
Boooooooring.

If you are mythic RAIDING you are doing mythic+ for AP.
Its that simple.

And that is exactly why we have this thread.
Mythic raiding is not fun because of all those boring out-of-raid activities.
Its that simple.

[Sylvaeres]

It use to be all about your skill, but now its all about how much time you spend grinding AP and mythic +.

I'm sorry Blizzard but unless you are in college or high school, nobody has time to be grinding this much every day.

You are completely wrong. A) if you can't have the basic traits needed at this point, you're not a mythic raider. It's been over 50 days and you can get 2 gold traits in like 2 days or casual play at this point. B) it still is very much about skill. You're deluding yourself into believing you made a logical argument

[skindown]

Lost the fun because you have to be prepared for it?

Okay, filthy casual

[Amantino]

Lost the fun because you have to be prepared for it?

Okay, filthy casual

By "Prepared", you mean "Overgeared"? Raid was a joke because everyone entered with more gear than intended, thanks to mythic plus. You can say everyone were well prepared so it made raid easier, but thats terrible design.