Why all dungeons should be designed like Karazhan

[melodramocracy]

People who haven't been there yet should keep in mind that just because it's called a mythic dungeon doesn't mean that it's comparable to the other mythic dungeons that exist right now.

This should be considered a 5 man raid, something I (and others I'm sure) have felt that the game should offer players for a while now. My guess is that they used Kara as a test bed for implementing this, as revamping it was far less work than entirely new content. If it proves to be insanely popular, you'll see more of this sort of thing in future expansions.

Having said that, no, not every dungeon should be this long. Average players in average groups, with intended item levels, will absolutely struggle in this place, don't let the "ah, my group one shot everything" outliers fool you. And in the long term, that's probably a good thing, as it will ensure folks going back and working towards nightbane in the coming months rather than it just taking a few weeks and then being considered irrelevant once Nighthold opens.

[Redblade]

They don't want kara to be faster/easier, they just dont want everything else to be like kara because #FUCKTHECASUALS

I'm sorry but I'm sure there are tons of players who does want Kara to be easier and faster. I think we should have both types of dungeons to cater to a broad spectrum.

[Deleted]

too bad for them

you don't go into a store demanding they shut down the candy section because you've got diabetes

christ this is such a bad analogy.

If you had diabetes and your local shops stopped selling everything other than Monster and Skittles you'd complain. Can you really not understand the difference between what you're saying and what they're saying? If so then you're beyond help.

[Yoshimiko]

too bad for them

you don't go into a store demanding they shut down the candy section because you've got diabetes

..what?

I want a Lamborghini too but i didnt invest in becoming a mech engineer or a doctor, or a drug lord, or a weapons dealer.

Great logic.

To the OP, running back for 5mins doesnt make a good dungeon or a hard dungeon, you killed your post with that, otherwise you have a few good points that also cant work with todays standards.

Karazhan is a mini-raid for the people that dont want to raid and want gear above 850 as many cry that they are stuck at 845-850.

Attunement is a good way to weed out "bads" or "Shit" as you call them, but what about my alt? My alt can probably outdps/outtank/outheal your main, why is he locked out exactly?

There is logic, and there is stupidity in things, big/long dungeons should be a thing much more often, but attunement doesnt mean jack shit.

....What?

No seriously, What?

"This is why some players prefer other content"
"WELL THEY SHOULD ALL QUIT, NOT LIKE I CAN HAVE A FERRARI"

The hell are you people on about?

Blizzard makes content for everybody. If every dungeon was like Kara, A lot of people would be happy. A lot of people would also never finish a dungeon again. Demanding ALL future content have the same scope as Karazan is silly. I guarantee Kara was very expensive on Blizzard's end in both manpower and time. It's also something that's difficult enough to bar entry from some players. You need a balance to keep more players happy, as well as handle design costs.

Besides, even the hardcore enjoy speedrunning +2-+5s along with slogging through 30 minute +15s. Scaling difficulty is amazing. Short bite-sized chunks of challenges is awesome, as well.

Well, do oit either with friends and spread it over 2 or 3 days or do it with guildies and rush thru in 2 hours.

I've already cleared it multiple times. I was explaining why it's a bad idea to create all future content based around players with >20 hours a week /played.

[Amerissis]

It's better to look dumb and stay silent, then to speak and remove all doubt.

[araine]

I want a Lamborghini too but i didnt invest in becoming a mech engineer or a doctor, or a drug lord, or a weapons dealer.

Great logic.

To the OP, running back for 5mins doesnt make a good dungeon or a hard dungeon, you killed your post with that, otherwise you have a few good points that also cant work with todays standards.

Karazhan is a mini-raid for the people that dont want to raid and want gear above 850 as many cry that they are stuck at 845-850.

Attunement is a good way to weed out "bads" or "Shit" as you call them, but what about my alt? My alt can probably outdps/outtank/outheal your main, why is he locked out exactly?

There is logic, and there is stupidity in things, big/long dungeons should be a thing much more often, but attunement doesnt mean jack shit.

No attunements are not good at weeding out the shits or the bads, Had a ret pally in HoV doing a whopping 92k dps over the course of the entire run, And to give further insult to you, this shit got a legendary as well in this what turned out to be a carry run. There you have it, so much for keeping shits and bads out, i can promise you this 855 or so ilvl ret pally will be in there helping you out so to speak,

[Deleted]

Well, do oit either with friends and spread it over 2 or 3 days or do it with guildies and rush thru in 2 hours.

How do you do it over 2-3 days? Even though they said it was gonna be raid like, the bosses and trash that you have already killed is still up. Unless this was hotfixed

[Xjev]

They just don't have the resources to make these kind of epic dungeons

[Deleted]

Player interaction out of necessity is not good for the community.
Dalaran daily heroics proved that.

And that is what such content is doing, making those other players a means to an end.
A way to get what you want.

Interaction with others shouldn't be primarily about necessity, but because you want to interact with them.

If you don't give people a reason to interact they wont. Its time you stop blaming the players and focus on the real problem.

[Dezminion]

When the game has content for all, even the 20-30mins/day players I often see replies like this to them;

"Perhaps they should just quit the game"
"Casuals do not need any content"
"Having easy content is what made this game so bad, they should remove it"

The guys who are flagging for this often (not always) are the same ppl, that whine loudly when there is a content drought between expansions, those ppl should ask from themselves; If all of the above would be removed, would I be willing to have even longer content droughts between expansions and between patches?

Why would that be the case you will ask;
If WoW would take all the "casual" and easy content away, the player population would drop massively, thus leading into the situation, that Blizzard would have to cut the team size, meaning, that they would need more time in doing new content.
Now let's ask again;
Would I have been ok, if SoO or HFC would have been 24-36 months long?

[CaptainV]

Your reasons for loving Karazhan so much are also the reasons why Karazhan is going to be so forgettable. I ran it once for nostalgia. No reason to run it again. At all. Totally forgettable dungeon.

Honestly this is exactly what I see happening, ill play Khara once, and once only, then probably never do it again simply because there wont be a reason to care until after Legion when ill probably farm it for mounts.


Maybe back in the ye old days of Vanillia dungeons *were* meant to be slow and progressive but that time has passed for alot of us. I played Vanillia and honestly, it wasnt fun then and long dungeons definatley aernt fun now.

People would rather just farm something that takes less than 30 minuates than spend 2 hours on one piece of meaningless content that will be irelevent by the next patch.

Kharazan wont keep people entertained long, at best, its there for a mount, maybe 2, and thats all people will ever care about.

[ComputerNerd]

If you don't give people a reason to interact they wont. Its time you stop blaming the players and focus on the real problem.

Actually some people do.
Not everyone needs an agenda.

Players ARE the problem, simple.
Forced interaction is not social.
Social is the choice to have positive interactions.
I can go around yelling and people, prompting interaction.
That is called anti-social for a reason.
Interaction alone is not social, nor constructive.

It is how you choose to interact that determines that.
So it absolutely is players that dictate the outcome of that.

Stop blaming blizzard for decisions players make themselves.

[Deleted]

When the game has content for all, even the 20-30mins/day players I often see replies like this to them;

"Perhaps they should just quit the game"
"Casuals do not need any content"
"Having easy content is what made this game so bad, they should remove it"

The guys who are flagging for this often (not always) are the same ppl, that whine loudly when there is a content drought between expansions, those ppl should ask from themselves; If all of the above would be removed, would I be willing to have even longer content droughts between expansions and between patches?

Why would that be the case you will ask;
If WoW would take all the "casual" and easy content away, the player population would drop massively, thus leading into the situation, that Blizzard would have to cut the team size, meaning, that they would need more time in doing new content.
Now let's ask again;
Would I have been ok, if SoO or HFC would have been 24-36 months long?

Dont bother - That have been said so many times thru the years, but they just cant grasp it. They need casuals who pay for hardcore content, yet they want them leave.

[Personofsecrets]

Sometimes big changes can really breathe life into a game. Other times, the game gets destroyed.

[Jastall]

Disagree.

I love Karazhan, but not all dungeons should be designed like it. It's nice to have content that doesn't require an hour and a half to clear even when you do it properly.

And not all dungeons should be very hard, either. It's more than fine for most dungeons to have normal and heroic modes. Not everyone has the time or skill to do something like Kara at appropriate ilvl, these players need content too.

[Azarak]

They want to play the game, and they paying subscription.

But they prefer playing game for 20-30mins and then logging out till next day or next week, over playing 2-3hour raids.

The point he's getting at, you might as well not even play if all you can do is play for 20minutes.

[Deleted]

Actually some people do.
Not everyone needs an agenda.

Players ARE the problem, simple.
Forced interaction is not social.
Social is the choice to have positive interactions.
I can go around yelling and people, prompting interaction.
That is called anti-social for a reason.
Interaction alone is not social, nor constructive.

It is how you choose to interact that determines that.
So it absolutely is players that dictate the outcome of that.

Stop blaming blizzard for decisions players make themselves.

Its the game that has to drive social interaction and you need to wake up and realize this - Blizzard seem to have.

As you state, interaction alone and for no reason is not social or constructive. Interaction driven by a game goal most certainly is - it can lead to the formation of guilds and friendship. It is Blizzard that need to set these goals and they are the only ones that can.

[Pipboi]

But there is alot ppl who dislike playing PC games too much, they play only 1-2 hours @ week, and there is ppl who login into WOW play for 20-30mins and then log out.

Playing too much is not healthy for eyes and eyesight

"Design your product for the people who use it the least." Sound business strategy right there.

[PewPewArrowz]

It's not feasible, and I'm sure they already know that, but they already had Karazhan and it's design in the pipe and didn't want to invest more resources in it than they already had. I honestly doubt after Karazhan we'll see any more Mythic only dungeons.

Arcway and Court of Stars say hello.

[dacoolist]

I ran it with a group of friends in 2 hours, avg ilvl was about 855.. we had 0 issues, and I think this was due to only playing with good people. If the attunement made this possible... I want attunements on the entire fucking game: you want to stand in dal and afk all day, you must be attuned to afk all day

Seriously, I loved the instance, loved the two people we pugged.. it was a great time!

- - - Updated - - -

Arcway and Court of Stars say hello.

And most the time, those two dungeons have given me the best groups. Maybe attunements really honestly weed out shit players?! Was this why TBC was so much smoother lol?