Queue vs Non-Queue Content

[Banquetto]

Can you solo Mythics already? Because I could solo WoD heroics on my hunter before BRF hit.
Most, if not all of the people clamoring for queueable mythics are the people who refuse to do anything but queued content, and are clearly willing to make any claim, true or false, to support their ideas.

No, most of the people saying Mythics are ridiculously easy are people mocking the people who refuse to do anything but queued content, not said refuseniks.

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Mythic 0 is at about the difficulty of cata heroics, which got nerfed due to dungeon finder tears.

As an aside, I could never figure that out. I did Cata heroics at launch, and the difficulty I recall was mechanics that would gib you if you didn't know what to do - I don't recall any runs that were any worse than "gib, wipe, someone explains, try again, succeed".

[dexx]

You are talking about difficulty levels. You can still see the dungeon by clicking on a queue, with the exception of the 3 I listed.

People dont care about seeing the content. They want upgrades.

[kary]

No, most of the people saying Mythics are ridiculously easy are people mocking the people who refuse to do anything but queued content, not said refuseniks.

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As an aside, I could never figure that out. I did Cata heroics at launch, and the difficulty I recall was mechanics that would gib you if you didn't know what to do - I don't recall any runs that were any worse than "gib, wipe, someone explains, try again, succeed".

No, not in this thread at least.

And again, right now if you have do do anything other than mongoloid tunnel, people fail. I remember how fun grim batol was. Thankfully I played blood dk so i was used to no cc and rotating cooldowns, but for instance the first boss with the add that made the boss zerk out was never handled well and caused wipes, the charge always instagibbed healers; second boss, people often stood in the cave-ins and the fire breaths; 3rd boss, people stood in the dragon's breath and died; last boss people would never switch to the adds or they would stand in the shadow gale and die. I've 2-3 manned more of cata pre-nerf heroics than I'm willing to admit. That's too hard for group finder. Yes, I personally think M+0 is easy as piss, but anything requiring you to actually play your class/role properly is too hard for group finder.
Sure, we'll disagree on that but after the colossal fails of cata heroics, cata zg, mop lfr (special shoutouts to garalon, durumu, lei shen, and nazgrim), lfr imperator, lfr blackhand, lfr kilrogg, lfr anzu, lfr xhul'horac, lfr archimonde... I'm 100% against any sort of mildly challenging content to be added to the group finder. Group finder's history with challenging content/encounters speaks volumes.

[Otimus]

Can you solo Mythics already? Because I could solo WoD heroics on my hunter before BRF hit.
Most, if not all of the people clamoring for queueable mythics are the people who refuse to do anything but queued content, and are clearly willing to make any claim, true or false, to support their ideas.
Mythic 0 is at about the difficulty of cata heroics, which got nerfed due to dungeon finder tears. Non faceroll content, content that you have to actually think and play properly for, have no place as queued content, at least not with the current participants of queued content.

Take a look at LFR archimonde. Take a look at LFR Xhul'horac. Xhul'horac was legit harder to get a kill on in LFR than it was in normal+, because lolexplosions. Asking people to play well in queued content is asking too much.

Errr... that's moreso asking 25 strangers to work together being the bigger problem, more than anything. I kind of think you're being a little unfair, and focused on your own biases.

No, not in this thread at least.

And again, right now if you have do do anything other than mongoloid tunnel, people fail. I remember how fun grim batol was. Thankfully I played blood dk so i was used to no cc and rotating cooldowns, but for instance the first boss with the add that made the boss zerk out was never handled well and caused wipes, the charge always instagibbed healers; second boss, people often stood in the cave-ins and the fire breaths; 3rd boss, people stood in the dragon's breath and died; last boss people would never switch to the adds or they would stand in the shadow gale and die. I've 2-3 manned more of cata pre-nerf heroics than I'm willing to admit. That's too hard for group finder. Yes, I personally think M+0 is easy as piss, but anything requiring you to actually play your class/role properly is too hard for group finder.
Sure, we'll disagree on that but after the colossal fails of cata heroics, cata zg, mop lfr (special shoutouts to garalon, durumu, lei shen, and nazgrim), lfr imperator, lfr blackhand, lfr kilrogg, lfr anzu, lfr xhul'horac, lfr archimonde... I'm 100% against any sort of mildly challenging content to be added to the group finder. Group finder's history with challenging content/encounters speaks volumes.

A lot of that really can be blamed on Blizzard. They never do things gradually. That's why cata's "difficulty" didn't work. It went from what most people probably viewed as a 2 in difficulty, to a 8.

If there was a difficulty curve, and not massive wild swings in Blizzard's decision decisions every other year, the level of capability of most players would probably have eventually gone up, instead of them basically spending the last 8 years or so frontloading difficulty exclusively in raids.


I mean, you have mostly valid points, I just think you're being massively unfair about how you're going about saying it.

[kary]

Errr... that's moreso asking 25 strangers to work together being the bigger problem, more than anything. I kind of think you're being a little unfair, and focused on your own biases.





A lot of that really can be blamed on Blizzard. They never do things gradually. That's why cata's "difficulty" didn't work. It went from what most people probably viewed as a 2 in difficulty, to a 8.

If there was a difficulty curve, and not massive wild swings in Blizzard's decision decisions every other year, the level of capability of most players would probably have eventually gone up, instead of them basically spending the last 8 years or so frontloading difficulty exclusively in raids.


I mean, you have mostly valid points, I just think you're being massively unfair about how you're going about saying it.

They literally, during the cata hype, explained that heroics weren't going to be faceroll.
Players went in expecting faceroll. Who's fault is that?

"Don't faceroll, we're making things hard so you actually have to try"

> Facerolls anyway
"Blizzard wtf please nerf i cant do randoms like before wtf man"

Also, most fights were personal responsibility. Xhul'horac was literally "don't touch the other colour and kill adds". Nazgrim was literally "don't attack him during x phase"
There has been a gradual rise in difficulty. People just ignore it, do what they want and then call for nerfs afterwards.

[Jewsco]

They literally, during the cata hype, explained that heroics weren't going to be faceroll.
Players went in expecting faceroll. Who's fault is that?

"Don't faceroll, we're making things hard so you actually have to try"

> Facerolls anyway
"Blizzard wtf please nerf i cant do randoms like before wtf man"

Also, most fights were personal responsibility. Xhul'horac was literally "don't touch the other colour and kill adds". Nazgrim was literally "don't attack him during x phase"
There has been a gradual rise in difficulty. People just ignore it, do what they want and then call for nerfs afterwards.

Agreed any that is arguing for any type of difficulty in queable content either has a short memory or flat out don't play. Every time the masses are faced with any level of difficulty they fail and the game gets a little bit more toxic. How many more times must this happen before some expect a different result? Isn't doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result the clinical definition of crazy? Have we not learned yet?

[Deleted]

Yeah healers and tanks are just clambering over themselves to join low geared groups when they can get 3 860+ dps in 4 seconds.

I usually join 840-850 ilvl groups, when i need to run a normal mythic.
Unless i got some friends online and they wanna play.
869 warrior tank.

[Deleted]

Jaylock Thread, Abandon Ship!

I actually like the new LFG Tool, now I can even easily search for mythics and mythic keystone Dung's seperately. Somehow challenging small group content is really appealing to me, since may raid lacks the Numbers to go Mythic, damned 20 spot fixed size.

And anything <=+7 is doable with capable pugs!

Queues should just be removed from the Game.

[bufferunderrun]

i prefer forming my own groups over the queue system. i think the LFD and LFR tools should be largely removed or transitioned out of the game. We are in a time now where there are tools available to form groups in other ways.

i think the other way around the era were you require a premade group or a guild is ending and everything should be transitioned to the automated system; guilds should only be required to do mythic raids and mythic plus that are objectively to hard to do in a random queue.

[Otimus]

They literally, during the cata hype, explained that heroics weren't going to be faceroll.
Players went in expecting faceroll. Who's fault is that?

"Don't faceroll, we're making things hard so you actually have to try"

> Facerolls anyway
"Blizzard wtf please nerf i cant do randoms like before wtf man"

Also, most fights were personal responsibility. Xhul'horac was literally "don't touch the other colour and kill adds". Nazgrim was literally "don't attack him during x phase"
There has been a gradual rise in difficulty. People just ignore it, do what they want and then call for nerfs afterwards.

I simply do not agree that there has been a gradual rise in difficulty. Maybe in raids and mythic dungeons, perhaps, but outside of that, I sure don't agree. Leveling has progressively gotten easier and faster. Heroic Dungeons go back and forth from being extremely easy or not, and LFR has gotten massively easier with each expansion.

The problem with cata was that the jump from WOTLK heroics to Cata heroics was just gigantic for the really low tier playerbase. You just can't do that. You can't go from a 1 to a 10. You go from a 1, to a 2, to a 3, to a 4, etc. Cata from WOTLK simply didn't do that, and I really don't understand how you could think it did that :/

Had they gone that route, the game would have a lot better playing content now than it does.

The only time gradual difficulty existed large scale was pre-WOTLK, and they've entirely abandoned that.

You're simply ignoring and or not caring how things worked out, and leaving Blizzard entirely blameless. I think that's real unfair.

[bufferunderrun]

Your entire list is wrong and retarded.

There are only 3 instances right now that require a premade group. Kara, CoS and Arcway.
Listing difficulties as separate entities is an attempt to confuse people and conflate the issues with difficulty and queued content.

And no, no heroic Kara. Just like CoS and Arcway, form a group if you want to see shiny things.

nope all mythic dungeons and all raid version beside lfr require you to form a manual group that is a fact on top of those you get 3 dungeons who don't have an alternative so there is effectively less content in automated queue than in manual.
Also most quest are tied to the manual version removing even more from the automated one.

[Amerissis]

Can you solo Mythics already? Because I could solo WoD heroics on my hunter before BRF hit.
Most, if not all of the people clamoring for queueable mythics are the people who refuse to do anything but queued content, and are clearly willing to make any claim, true or false, to support their ideas.
Mythic 0 is at about the difficulty of cata heroics, which got nerfed due to dungeon finder tears. Non faceroll content, content that you have to actually think and play properly for, have no place as queued content, at least not with the current participants of queued content.

Take a look at LFR archimonde. Take a look at LFR Xhul'horac. Xhul'horac was legit harder to get a kill on in LFR than it was in normal+, because lolexplosions. Asking people to play well in queued content is asking too much.

But how is pugging different? Those are strangers too. The only difference is that those groups usually demand an absurdly high ilevel, hoping to mitigate bad play.

[ls-]

But how is pugging different? Those are strangers too. The only difference is that those groups usually demand an absurdly high ilevel, hoping to mitigate bad play.

Cuz you can't demand anything to mitigate bad play if group is randomly created by the system from available pool of players. And this way you run into pre-nerf LFR Archi scenario, when many people couldn't kill him w/ 10 stacks of determination, cuz people outright refused to perform any simple mechanics, some people didn't want to do anything at all, just afk and wait till it's dead.

That's the difference between LFD\LFR and PuG.

Even if we had some kind of ranking system, like the one in overwatch, that would group up people of more or less same skill level together, we wouldn't have not nerfed queueable m0, and/or normal raids anyway.

[Prokne]

There is no reason not to have almost all content and difficulty levels queueable. The fact is that probably everything except for mythic does not require a huge amount of coordination, and the difficulty can be compensated with higher item level. You should be able to queue for normal raids at about 140 ilvl and heroic around 150. You could probably add 5 to those numbers to be safe.

As far as coordination, most pugs aren't coordinated very well either. I don't know how many times I've joined a group that fails on one of the first few bosses of a raid because the RL assumed everyone knew what they were doing and everyone had different strats in mind or didn't know anything. Those groups fall apart and then you're stuck looking for another group for an hour to redo those first bosses and then wipe and break up again. At least with a queueable raid, people quit and others will be recruited. At some point enough dedicated people will kill it.

[Narzok]

would be fun to see ALL content queneable for a short time, just to see the chaos and shitstorms, would be glorious^^

[Pull My Finger]

Or maybe it's people who don't like carrying lazy people that don't gear properly and do mediocre output

That's how they see themselves, yes. But the accurate version is more along the lines of the "self-centered, insecure idiots" I mentioned previously.

[Deleted]

Since the artifact questline requires to be done in EN normal or higher difficulty, at least one raid difficulty must be mentionned on the list for non-queueable content. "See the story in LFR" is a blatant lie by now.

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would be fun to see ALL content queneable for a short time, just to see the chaos and shitstorms, would be glorious^^

Well, while I have not set foot in organised raiding since the end of Cata, I was still top when it came to MC mechanics in the LFR 10th anniversary event. A handfull of people knew the mechanics (the few that MC had), the rest did not. But the clusterfuck in this special case was the laziness in it's implementation. The devs seem to have forgotten that in the past years a quite long CD was added to dispels. So, you did not even had a chance to dispel the raid completely if everybody would have used their dispel abilities, because by that time, the next debuff would be applied by the boss. *rolls eyes*

[Flurryfang]

Jaylock Thread, Abandon Ship!

I actually like the new LFG Tool, now I can even easily search for mythics and mythic keystone Dung's seperately. Somehow challenging small group content is really appealing to me, since may raid lacks the Numbers to go Mythic, damned 20 spot fixed size.

And anything <=+7 is doable with capable pugs!

Queues should just be removed from the Game.

While i agree with 100% of the matter of the LFG tool, i still feel like the queing system/LFD is still an important tool to have in the game, not just at lower lvls to tilwatch for suitable groups and pick manually. With the queing system, you can que up and keep on questing, which is why i like the idea of LFD, and to some extent LFR.

But i will say, that mythic has no place in LFD. If we really want hard content, then we have to allow Blizzard to keep that content away from randoms and be kept in a personal group finding tool. I think that if Mythics are ever put into a queing system, we will see its difficulty, and therefore its quallity, fall very quickly.

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Since the artifact questline requires to be done in EN normal or higher difficulty, at least one raid difficulty must be mentionned on the list for non-queueable content. "See the story in LFR" is a blatant lie by now.

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Well, while I have not set foot in organised raiding since the end of Cata, I was still top when it came to MC mechanics in the LFR 10th anniversary event. A handfull of people knew the mechanics (the few that MC had), the rest did not. But the clusterfuck in this special case was the laziness in it's implementation. The devs seem to have forgotten that in the past years a quite long CD was added to dispels. So, you did not even had a chance to dispel the raid completely if everybody would have used their dispel abilities, because by that time, the next debuff would be applied by the boss. *rolls eyes*

You can still experience the content. The point of view that Jaylock uses, is the story way of content. The artifact questline does not give any story, which is important to the main story-line. It is just a fun side-story to give raiders something to work for

[Amerissis]

Cuz you can't demand anything to mitigate bad play if group is randomly created by the system from available pool of players. And this way you run into pre-nerf LFR Archi scenario, when many people couldn't kill him w/ 10 stacks of determination, cuz people outright refused to perform any simple mechanics, some people didn't want to do anything at all, just afk and wait till it's dead.

That's the difference between LFD\LFR and PuG.

Even if we had some kind of ranking system, like the one in overwatch, that would group up people of more or less same skill level together, we wouldn't have not nerfed queueable m0, and/or normal raids anyway.

My point is, in pugs you also have no idea of someone's skill. None. Even an achievement is worthless, because you can simply buy those or accidentally get carried. If gear is the only difference, you can simply make the queue demand a higher ilevel as well.

[ls-]

My point is, in pugs you also have no idea of someone's skill. None. Even an achievement is worthless, because you can simply buy those or accidentally get carried. If gear is the only difference, you can simply make the queue demand a higher ilevel as well.

You can't make queue system require ilvl higher than content's rewards, demanding anything below rewards' ilvl isn't even remotely enough to mitigate lack of skills.

You simply can't use matchmaking system for any form of hard or moderately hard content. People occasionally encounter 100k@ilvl860 guys in PuGs, but you can always kick him and find someone else, even if he's a leader, chance of inviting yet another 100k@ilvl860 guy is relatively small, but there're much more people like that guy among those who don't do anything, but queueable content.

(Moderately) hard queueable content will cause nothing, but more frustration/toxicity.