Why must everything be accessible?

[SirBeef]

It started with the bike helmets but, it was really the participation ribbons that sent them over the edge. #millenialprobs

I went to elementary school in the 70s, they gave out participation ribbons then too. It's nothing new.

[Hctaz]

On topic: There's nothing wrong with "casuals" getting to do things. None of it affects your personal gamepay. Just as being "hardcore" doesn't affect anyone else. It's not a contest unless you make it into one.

Nobody wants a competition. They just want people to have some incentive to try to put effort into the game. Games were created as a way to bring your fantasies to life. These are DnD players who wanted to create that big dragon right there on the screen for you to see. These are the gamers of old who meticulously wrote out by hand their character stats, the ones who spent hours and hours with their friends just clearing one dungeon because every time you entered a new room the game master would have to set the scene with his words from a book. He would have to present you your options and each room was like a little puzzle with traps and the like. Sometimes you would get ambushed by monsters and you'd get told a minute or longer story of how the ambush happened. Every little detail was described. These games were not easy and they were very very tedious but very very fun. These nerds went on to found many different gaming companies throughout the world. Nintendo was made up of these very nerds. People wanting to create their adventures. People who wanted the people of the world to experience exploration, struggle, combat, and mystery just as they had but in a visual way. Blizzard was exactly like this. Gamers who wanted to bring you an epic tale. Gamers who wanted you to blow up monsters in a dungeon crawler, who wanted you to use your brain in the battlefield of Azeroth fighting for the orcs or the humans, who wanted you to experience this massive world and conquer it. We're so far gone from this sense of exploration and wonderment and it sucks.

The model of this WoW is not the model of Vanilla or TBC anymore. The reason why people keep asking for these old systems back is because they want that harder style of gaming with exploration and friendship. They want less focus on the end game and more focus on the journey. How did you get there? What path did you take? Walking into a room for the first time in a dungeon and getting absolutely obliterated is supposed to be a thing that happens. I miss the days when a particularly large trash pool wasn't just a sign of an AoE fest but it was an actual FEAR. I was afraid to pull trash sometimes because I knew death was imminent.

Gaming is supposed to be hardcore. It was always hardcore at the root. But money talks I guess.

Edit: The real issue isn't even players having a life or not put 8 hours a day effort into the game. I know somebody who dislikes all this hard content and she plays the game more than I do. She plays 10-12 hours a day doing casual stuff and then complains that there's nothing for her to do anymore because she DOESN'T LIKE THE CHALLENGE. She dislike raiding and mythics because she feels like she's not good enough. The problem isn't that people don't want to play the game, the problem is that these people who do play the game for just as much time as us mythic raiders don't want a challenge anymore.

[Lilija]

Except not everything is accessible to everyone. There are still things gated by skill and comittement. Sure, those aren't many but so there aren't many people with high skill and lots of time at their disposal. I think accessibility in WoW is pretty well balanced nowadays given the demands of the played community (which doesn't equal forum community :P )

[Mizix]

Actually, it's a unique situation for video games. For about every other hobby, dedication, involvement and hard work is considered good.
Someone plays tennis, football, chess, or even paint or write ? If he spend quite a bit of time and try to improve, he'll get accolade, not mockery.
Only video game have this stigma that spending time in your hobby to perfect yourself is "a waste of time" (a hobby IS a "waste of time" by definition, BTW, which seems to be often forgotten in these arguments).

Your analogy is a bit off though. Hardcore players in this thread are telling casuals to "put in the effort"/"work" toward goals. They are telling casuals to approach their hobby as if it was a job, wasting a lot of time and resources on it because that's how you improve and progress. So, in a sense, you (generic "you") are comparing casual tennis players to semi-professional tennis players and telling casuals that they should not enjoy their hobby, unless they put in the effort to become semi-professionals tennis players too, because somehow them enjoying a Sunday match with friends and family ruins the hardcore tournament. And that's not even the best part. The best part is that these hardcore players are, in reality, just above-average players. Do you think Roger Federer gives a shit about what millions of casual and semi-professional tennis players do? He doesn't, if not being happy that tennis is a loved and practiced sport.

True hardcore gamers are not mocked, they actually have tournaments with huge prizes and accolades (Blizzcon basically became an e-sport event), their guilds hold some kind of prestige on their realms/community and people usually recognize a bunch of exceptional players. Mockery is directed at those who PRETENDS to be hardcore players but actually are just above-average, waste their life in game whilst accomplishing just above-average achievements, yet insist on having an elitist attitude.

[Hctaz]

Sure, those aren't many but so there aren't many people with high skill and lots of time at their disposal.

Except that isn't always true. High skill maybe but I know plenty of people who are just afraid of a challenge. They're afraid of losing and they're afraid to put forth any effort whatsoever into content that can "fail". Sometimes you have to throw in the towel and they don't want to even grab a towel to begin with. I know people that play this game more than I did in the beginning when I was farming to as close to 850 item level as I could get before the raids were released, yet they've never even gone into normal mode. They now complain there's nothing to do for them.

[Deleted]

Nobody wants a competition. They just want people to have some incentive to try to put effort into the game. Games were created as a way to bring your fantasies to life.

I can stand at the top of the Highmountain peak, just looking around the world - without doing anything at all - and my imagination can bring fantasies to life.
Imagination and fantasy does need incentives or effort in terms of "hard" gameplay. That's a silly notion.

[Echo of Soul]

The model of this WoW is not the model of Vanilla or TBC anymore. The reason why people keep asking for these old systems back is because they want that harder style of gaming with exploration and friendship. They want less focus on the end game and more focus on the journey. How did you get there? What path did you take? Walking into a room for the first time in a dungeon and getting absolutely obliterated is supposed to be a thing that happens. I miss the days when a particularly large trash pool wasn't just a sign of an AoE fest but it was an actual FEAR. I was afraid to pull trash sometimes because I knew death was imminent.

Gaming is supposed to be hardcore. It was always hardcore at the root. But money talks I guess.

Well said. Today it's more about seeing everything in a nerfed to the ground state and then seeing the same thing over and over again at a harder difficulty. I's the complete opposite of character progression, instead of your character getting stronger to be able to complete more difficult content or trivialize content it's already trivialized from the get go and instead of your character getting stronger, the content is.

It's also about speed. Doing things as fast as humanly possible and this stressful "go go go!" mentality runs through the entire game and it's only gotten worse and worse with the culmination of mythic+ dungeons.

Legion and vanilla/tbc are two completely different games. The only thing they have in common is the universe and that they are both tab targeting mmos, and one of them could even be described as an RPG.

[Deleted]

This is why we have difficulty levels, and the hardest tier has the better rewards.

[Rojaha]

Your analogy is a bit off though. Hardcore players in this thread are telling casuals to "put in the effort"/"work" toward goals. They are telling casuals to approach their hobby as if it was a job, wasting a lot of time and resources on it because that's how you improve and progress. So, in a sense, you (generic "you") are comparing casual tennis players to semi-professional tennis players and telling casuals that they should not enjoy their hobby, unless they put in the effort to become semi-professionals tennis players too, because somehow them enjoying a Sunday match with friends and family ruins the hardcore tournament. And that's not even the best part. The best part is that these hardcore players are, in reality, just above-average players. Do you think Roger Federer gives a shit about what millions of casual and semi-professional tennis players do? He doesn't, if not being happy that tennis is a loved and practiced sport.

True hardcore gamers are not mocked, they actually have tournaments with huge prizes and accolades (Blizzcon basically became an e-sport event), their guilds hold some kind of prestige on their realms/community and people usually recognize a bunch of exceptional players. Mockery is directed at those who PRETENDS to be hardcore players but actually are just above-average, waste their life in game whilst accomplishing just above-average achievements, yet insist on having an elitist attitude.

Michael Jordan used to get really upset knowing that there were people out there in the world who would just casually play basketball 1 on 1 without full teams. And even worse, there are people who don't play on regulation courts in arenas. Eventually Michael Jordan realized there was no incentive to play basketball and retired because apparently kids could just go out an BUY nikes, without EARNING a sponsorship. What's even the point of basketball anymore? Casuals ruined it.

[Rayaleith]

It is funny that you label raiders as serious. We'll you are wrong. The only serious players are the teams that actually make money in e-sports and not a 3 day per week team that farms the content after the first or second kill...

Edit: just realized that mizix said the same thing. So yes stop trying to feel like hardcore

[Deleted]

Now I'm already certain where this thread will go, but this is a serious question. Why must everything in WoW be accessible to EVERYONE? I just don't understand I think of it as a formula of sorts.

If you play this game for casual play and do not like group content, then you do not need to be able to get dungeon/raid gear or benefits.

If you play this game to raid and take down challenging content then you need the gear and you will in turn earn it, or at least work for it.

It seems on these forums A LOT of people have the mentality that as long as you buy a game you SHOULD be able to complete it in entirety no matter how much effort is expended. Would you simply prefer to login as soon as an expansion is launched and have vendors lined up with full BiS, titles, mounts, etc? So honestly I'd like to hear that side of the story.

Literally WHAT?

So tired of this bullshit.


Everything is not accessible and will never be. Yes they can see the instance, and do it on a lower difficulty that is nothing like the higher ones. Yes they can get the same looks in different designs and color schemes, but the stats? The stats are way way lower.


Just compare EN, LFR = 835, Mythic = 880. Not enough of a gap for you?

The true organized group content isnt going anywhere, they are just putting in easier queuable dungeons so that everyone gets to see their shiny new areas, what's the fun in making an awesome dungeon or raid, if only 5-10% (being generous here) of the playerbase will get to see them?

[tratra]

Because companies like Blizzard have started to cater to the people who whine about having to put in work. Most games are now catering to the casuals, simply put.

If anyone tells me "Dude no they aren'ttttttttttttttttt theirs still mythic raids!"

lol

completely agree with you on that. And mythics are a joke... take for example mythic EN... what a joke really, I joined a guild that I can characterize as a bunch of tards and they cleared it because they just had some more time to raid on it and wipe until everyone learns the fight to its entirety. No actual challenge there.

- - - Updated - - -

Literally WHAT?

So tired of this bullshit.


Everything is not accessible and will never be. Yes they can see the instance, and do it on a lower difficulty that is nothing like the higher ones. Yes they can get the same looks in different designs and color schemes, but the stats? The stats are way way lower.


Just compare EN, LFR = 835, Mythic = 880. Not enough of a gap for you?

The true organized group content isnt going anywhere, they are just putting in easier queuable dungeons so that everyone gets to see their shiny new areas, what's the fun in making an awesome dungeon or raid, if only 5-10% (being generous here) of the playerbase will get to see them?

literally mythic EN up to Cenarius is a joke and even on cenarius all u need to do is turn stupid people in ur group to understand that if the brumbles are going for them they need to get them away and put them in a circle.

[HumbleDuck]

They are acesseable to everyone. Make a group and go there, want hc and mythic raids? They are there. Mythic+? They are there. Or they removed them for LRF players?

It's not by a vast majority of the player base. ( At least not for now)
Here is the definition of accessibility.
You are confusing usability with accessibility. Even though all of the content is usable by everyone in the game, not all of the content is accessible by them as currently there are not that many effective systems in the game to let people with disabilities such as lack of time, strange working hours social anxiety, ... Experience all the content.
Having said that, as mentioned in my previous posts, I don't think making all of the content accessible by everyone is a good idea, but all of the instances in the world should he accessible at least on one difficulty.

Edit: usable in this context means payable.

[DoctorDoomkin]

If you are talking about seeing the whole story: Yeah. We kinda do. And we want to actually experience it ourselves as opposed to watching it on a Youtube video.

If you are talking about gear and rewards: There are plenty of that for those who put forth the effort. Some are easier than others. Some are harder than others.

However, making everything exclusive behind a wall where players are going to need to dedicate a huge amount of time to make attempts to do it isn't a feasible market. Any kind of MMO where they tried to cater to the hardcore community found themselves not making a lot of money. Mainly because there isn't enough people willing to pay a subscription for a game that they will not get to see a large amount of content.


There is plenty of stuff for the hardcore community. There is plenty of stuff for the casual community. Hardcore gets to see the cool shit first. Everyone else gets to either struggle or wait until that content becomes old and they make changes to allow them to experience the gear while they go off getting the next Gold medal gear.



It's the carrot on the stick scenario. Make the stick too long, and the game becomes less appealing. See Cataclysm's heroics. Make the stick too short and there won't be any satisfaction. The trick is to have the stick just big enough so that players are willing to make the effort to get the carrot. The casuals will know that, in time, they will get their carrot. The hardcore community will get their carrot and make the next attempt at the new carrot.


If you already got the carrot, quit complaining about others getting the carrot months after you got it. The casuals surely are not asking the game to play itself. WoD is a perfect example of what happens when you do.

[nekobaka]

This is why we have difficulty levels, and the hardest tier has the better rewards.

Yet we still got players bitching about dailies being a viable endgame. How can there both be people who complain about not being able to progress their character outside of raids and then people complaining that there is character progression outside of raids. It is almost as if WoW is a theme park MMO and doing more gives more rewards. Dang, about half the people claiming it is about the content and not rewards are complaining about rewards in another post while trying to one up others as more superior while complaining about those who are enjoying something they dont enjoy.

Seems a number of posters wouldnt be happen even if the devs designed solely off of their feedback.

[Lilija]

Except that isn't always true. High skill maybe but I know plenty of people who are just afraid of a challenge. They're afraid of losing and they're afraid to put forth any effort whatsoever into content that can "fail". Sometimes you have to throw in the towel and they don't want to even grab a towel to begin with. I know people that play this game more than I did in the beginning when I was farming to as close to 850 item level as I could get before the raids were released, yet they've never even gone into normal mode. They now complain there's nothing to do for them.

Why do you want to force people into doing something they don't want to do? Fear of failure cannot be overcome with pressure. People who suffer from it need change their way of thinking and it's a long process. I'm actually a person who suffers from deep rooted fear of failure and yet, somehow I'm doing the hardest content in WoW. Why? Because I, on my own have found something I want to gain from it and it's bigger than my fear. But I can assure you that if someone tried to force me into doing that I would just quit. I would assume my certain emotional issues keep me from doing PvP and so far no incentive was able to make me do PvP. Well... I'm doing PvP wq's for some reason tho I need yet to figure out why I'm fine with those and won't step into arena or bg.

Also, people nowadays complain about burn out rather than having nothing to do.

Don't try to go into psychology if you have no clue about it.

[Ehuehuecopter]

Oh boy another mongoloid OP with a worthless thread because he cannot be no more entitled!

Mod Edit: Infracted

[ComputerNerd]

You have your exclusivity in higher tiers of content.
If you can't stand anyone getting an inferior version, then you are the problem and not us.

We are the ones always being called "entitled", yet this demand that there is more stuff that caters to the "real raiders" is exactly that.
Bunch of hypocrites.

[Protean]

Now I'm already certain where this thread will go, but this is a serious question. Why must everything in WoW be accessible to EVERYONE? I just don't understand I think of it as a formula of sorts.

If you play this game for casual play and do not like group content, then you do not need to be able to get dungeon/raid gear or benefits.

If you play this game to raid and take down challenging content then you need the gear and you will in turn earn it, or at least work for it.

It seems on these forums A LOT of people have the mentality that as long as you buy a game you SHOULD be able to complete it in entirety no matter how much effort is expended. Would you simply prefer to login as soon as an expansion is launched and have vendors lined up with full BiS, titles, mounts, etc? So honestly I'd like to hear that side of the story.

The real question is, why are you so opposed to other people seeing the entirety of the game?

[Hctaz]

Well said. Today it's more about seeing everything in a nerfed to the ground state and then seeing the same thing over and over again at a harder difficulty. I's the complete opposite of character progression, instead of your character getting stronger to be able to complete more difficult content or trivialize content it's already trivialized from the get go and instead of your character getting stronger, the content is.

It's also about speed. Doing things as fast as humanly possible and this stressful "go go go!" mentality runs through the entire game and it's only gotten worse and worse with the culmination of mythic+ dungeons.

Legion and vanilla/tbc are two completely different games. The only thing they have in common is the universe and that they are both tab targeting mmos, and one of them could even be described as an RPG.

I would prefer it if they had more exclusive things locked behind difficulty. I'm not okay with Karazhan getting put into heroic due to this. It should be a cool little goal for people to get gud in order to clear Kara on the intended difficulty. I know they won't ever lock raids behind difficulty again which is unfortunate honestly but oh well. I really wish they had an LFR/Normal mode raid and a heroic/mythic raid but that would be unfeasible. Would be nice though. If you're not that good you can do the easier raid and then work your way up to a harder and harder stuff until you're doing the heroic raiding content. I also think more dungeons should be mythic only and be difficult as well. I liked Arcway, CoS, and Kara. I suppose, though, that it's time they get moved to the public. They had their period of exclusivity.