Does artifact levelling need a review?

[Pua]

To be honest, I’m starting to find that I have a lot of sympathy for the raiding community on the topic of artifact progression. The bottom line is that the discrepancies between those who’ve played a lot and those who haven’t are becoming quite startling, to the point where I’ve chosen not to join my guild group on heroic progression because my artifact is currently too far behind. My choice, as a hybrid (demon hunter), was to largely develop both of my artifacts simultaneously, a choice that’s now effectively led to me being a generally squishier tank and a sub-optimal DPS player; one can only imagine what’s happened to players that have tried to keep up with three artifacts rather than the demon hunter double, or who are expected to maintain alts.

While I’m sure it wasn’t the design intent, the system is passively punishing hybrid players and the groups they belong to.

The quandary, of course, is that artifact progression needed to be meaningful, or it would have been pointless – but we’re now in the position where people who chose to go down a certain route on their artifact are simply stuck with having blown hundreds of thousands of artifact power into a build that’s not optimal for what they’re trying to do at endgame. Too bad. Amusingly, my own guild told me that I’d be playing DPS for them when I joined, but I’ve tanked most of the time. This is because my guild is generally a group of casual raiders with the attendance issues you’d expect of such a group, but with the move toward clearing heroic the demand has come that players comfortably hit 200k DPS sustained DPS or they won’t be seeing an invitation. This is a fair enough request, but those who’ve done nothing other than play more (and not, necessarily, better) are having a much easier time hitting the mark than those who are in the more casual department that the guild is built around.

The design just doesn’t seem to pass the sniff test.

Unfortunately, artifact power isn’t the only problem. When looking at the Diablo 3-esque gearing system, players that don’t play often are doubly punished when it comes to performance. Playing more means more items, which means a higher percentage chance that you’ll get the upgrades you’re looking for; an especial problem when dealing with legendary items, items that can vary wildly in their output depending on class and spec. A guild mate was devastated when his random upgrade on a relic was only available to his Fury weapon, which he didn’t need, only to get no upgrade for his Protection shield which is where he needed it. It’s understood that RNG is RNG, but that’s not the observation to take away – the observation to take away is much simpler:

“Is this system any fun?”

From my own experience, the answer that’s becoming more and more common is “no”. When you throw class tuning discrepancies into the mix, an Elemental shaman that plays three nights a week will be behind a mage playing six nights a week by orders of magnitude, and with it having nothing to do with content completion or ability. My erstwhile argument has been that it doesn’t matter all that much, given that competitive play is only for an extremely small minority of players and non-competitive play isn’t tuned very tightly, but I’ve since been persuaded otherwise. It’s just not fun being behind a player, and by the swings I’ve seen, by virtue of playing less than he has. Looking at logs, there are players in my guild that are actually substantially better than other players (GCD maximising, correct ability percentages, intelligent cooldown use, imaginative deployment of utility skills) yet, by virtue of being online less, are leagues behind their less-capable colleagues in output. And while most DPS arguments within a guild are good-natured, some players will undoubtedly feel that they’re letting themselves and their guild mates down. Sadly, the “choice” to play more and catch up isn’t actually a choice at all – with artifact power, you can’t catch up. You’re behind, and you’re going to stay behind.

My conclusion, ultimately, is that artifact progression, and the entire gearing paradigm, needs to be reviewed.

Artifact knowledge is one way of treating the problem, but it’s nowhere near good enough because the scrolls are time-gated. A friend of mine pointed out that alts can actually end up with a number of scrolls by queuing the research before levelling up their artifact, but it’s a bizarre world if we’re encouraging players not to play the game in order to efficiently level up their artifact. It’s backwards. While a design rethink is probably out of scope for Legion, I personally think there really needs to be some balancing done prior to the next major tier. There are some relatively simple options here, but most anything will suffice:

• 1) Dramatically reduce the amount of artifact power needed for each trait.
• 2) Have artifact power contributions shared amongst all artifacts.
• 3) Have a weekly catch-up, similar to previous Conquest systems.
• 4) Remove the need to max out a trait before moving to another one.
• 5) Have a trait-based reward for World Quests (unlock a full trait).
• 6) Dramatically speed up the turnaround for artifact knowledge.
• 7) Have artifact knowledge scrolls applied to an entire account.
• 8) Have first-level traits at a static, non-growing, artifact power cost.

Or, alternatively, use a combination of these or other ideas that, essentially, show an end to the artifact progression chain within a reasonable period of time. For me, personally, that’s the biggest issue; when is this going to end? From memory, I’m at level 25/26 on both of my artifacts and the thought of having to grind them both to completion, before going through it all again on my two main alternative characters, is utterly demoralising. The overwhelming feeling at the moment is not excitement about unlocking the next trait, it’s how much investment am I going to have to put into this weapon before I start to approach my theoretical output potential.

Honestly, it sucks.

And for those who are at the top of the game and progressing in Mythic raids, I’m sorry. I was wrong to dismiss your worries when you presented them, and I’m sorry that I didn’t take them as seriously as I should have. Conjoined with the wildly different gear levels players can be at, and large discrepancies in class and gear-statistic tuning, the burden to play more to remain current must be approaching unbearable levels.

[Zic]

Don't grind AP, just play the game and you'll progress it quick enough. At the start of the expansion I was doing every AP WQ that was up, and now I barely touch WQs and I still have two artifacts at 30.

Having your artifacts at 35 (the first stacking trait) isn't that big of a deal for the vast majority of the playerbase, just slowly work towards it at your own pace.

In any case, Artifacts are supposed to be a long term max level progression system, and I think they fill that niche quite well. The alt problem is being addressed soon enough anyways with purchasable artifact knowledge, which will really speed up everything.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

Where's my sympathy for having to buy these fucking stupid Defiled Augment Runes? They cost 700g a piece and every hardass leader requires you to pop hundreds of them during progression. If you aren't rich as hell, you need to spent 50 hours a week farming gold to cover it. What happened to the 15-20 hour/week Mythic semi-hardcore raider?

It's a thing of the past, apparently.

[Pua]

What happened to the 15-20 hour/week Mythic semi-hardcore raider?

It's a thing of the past, apparently.

Well, yes; it is.

This is the first time since I can remember that Blizzard have really thrown their "hardcore" raiders under the bus a little. Sure, we can argue that it's about time - but it's affecting everyone else, too.

[Lochton]

Hmm, I currently like it.

[IceMan1763]

Where's my sympathy for having to buy these fucking stupid Defiled Augment Runes? They cost 700g a piece and every hardass leader requires you to pop hundreds of them during progression. If you aren't rich as hell, you need to spent 50 hours a week farming gold to cover it. What happened to the 15-20 hour/week Mythic semi-hardcore raider?

It's a thing of the past, apparently.

That player has been excluded from this xpac... plain and simple.

There is no reason for that player to play Legion.

[Apsychicrat]

alot of the problems you have here are of self design, just cuz you can do something doesnt mean you have to. ive got a rank 28 artifact on my main and that does just fine. i dont even bother to try and get those defiled runes as they are a silly low amount of stats so they wont make you stop wiping in phase 2 of xavious.

if your not having fun i think you should dial it back and stop being "OCD must have it all" and things will get alot better

- - - Updated - - -

That player has been excluded from this xpac... plain and simple.

There is no reason for that player to play Legion.

nah, just stop popping runes on every pull, when the raid can get the boss to sub 10% consistantly then start the popping as thats when youll start to see the benifit. not when your wiping on the first 50% cuz people are standing in the fire

[Ergunk]

A game like WoW imho shouldnt have artifact progression for each spec.... With a game that is constant changing and classes that are undergoing updates all the time, they should had made artifact power weapon wide, so each point goes to all weapons.

With the recent ptr notes for hunters, which i sure as hell hope will change, i feel so broken that i have invested that much time in Marksmanship.

[Apsychicrat]

A game like WoW imho shouldnt have artifact progression for each spec.... With a game that is constant changing and classes that are undergoing updates all the time, they should had made artifact power weapon wide, so each point goes to all weapons.

With the recent ptr notes for hunters, which i sure as hell hope will change, i feel so broken that i have invested that much time in Marksmanship.

or i think blizz wants people to learn that being the top 1% isnt something you should be driving at. you should drive to just do the best you can and as long as thats over the line that is needed to kill the boss then it shouldnt matter. I personally love marksman. and that new legendary that lets you move with aim shot looks ballin

[Sansnom]

A game like WoW imho shouldnt have artifact progression for each spec.... With a game that is constant changing and classes that are undergoing updates all the time, they should had made artifact power weapon wide, so each point goes to all weapons.

With the recent ptr notes for hunters, which i sure as hell hope will change, i feel so broken that i have invested that much time in Marksmanship.

Well, some players were glamouring for the past. One class, one spec. That is your main. Stick with it. Want to change? Pay the cost. Alts should not be an option.

Now we know what it feels like to grind grind grind like MMO of old.

I am not supporting either nor do I have a strong opinion.

[IceMan1763]

nah, just stop popping runes on every pull, when the raid can get the boss to sub 10% consistantly then start the popping as thats when youll start to see the benifit. not when your wiping on the first 50% cuz people are standing in the fire

I'm not sure if you even replied to the right person... but I've unsubbed from this disaster of an xpac long ago... absolutely not worth my time.

There are MUCH better games out there!

- - - Updated - - -

Well, some players were glamouring for the past. One class, one spec. That is your main. Stick with it. Want to change? Pay the cost. Alts should not be an option.

Now we know what it feels like to grind grind grind like MMO of old.

I am not supporting either nor do I have a strong opinion.

Well, I think we're going to see that if there ever really was a strong market for that kind of game (I don't think there was... leading to the popularity explosion when they started to do away with stupid, pointless grinds starting in BC and really catching steam with Wrath), that it has disappeared in today's gaming market. Activity levels for Legion are plummeting and soon will be at the same levels as end of WOD.

[Celadir]

A game like WoW imho shouldnt have artifact progression for each spec.... With a game that is constant changing and classes that are undergoing updates all the time, they should had made artifact power weapon wide, so each point goes to all weapons.

With the recent ptr notes for hunters, which i sure as hell hope will change, i feel so broken that i have invested that much time in Marksmanship.

This. A thousand times this. I've said the same thing since the beginning of Legion.

[Droodid]

Blizzard has said time and time again, they think it's in a great place and have no plans of reviewing or making changes at the time. So even if everyone keeps making threads "Does X Need a Review?" Blizzard will go, it's fine. Nothing to see here.

[Jester Joe]

I think it's fine, just some artifacts could use with path adjustments.

Like, Ashbringer for example. The ideal DPS route takes far longer than most artifacts to get to your first "must have" gold trait. There is a short path to get to it, but the traits are really lackluster down that path. So you end up with either skipping your gold trait for a long time, or you go the short route, stock up AP, and then reset when you can take the long way around. It's just messy.

[analmoose]

I'm around 870, with an 820 helm. have not had a replacement for it yet. Every week in my myth+ chest i get a 870+ titanforged piece, that sidegrades or uprades something by 5 ilvls. Never anything significant, like the 840 trinket, or the 820 head, or the 850 belt. Shit drives me absolutely insane. They need to come up with an algorithm that will be partially favorable to a greater upgrade. Yes, yes, rng is rng. But you can at least make it a little tolerable

[darklogrus]

A game like WoW imho shouldnt have artifact progression for each spec.... With a game that is constant changing and classes that are undergoing updates all the time, they should had made artifact power weapon wide, so each point goes to all weapons.

With the recent ptr notes for hunters, which i sure as hell hope will change, i feel so broken that i have invested that much time in Marksmanship.

Situations like this makes me wonder about the state of the Alts. Someone in your spot is left with some off putting choices. Do you stay with the spec and class you put 100's of hours into. Do you swap to one of the classes walready weaker off specs. Or do you work on an Alt, but then you realize just how out of the game that specs artifact weapon is compared to even the below avg players.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm around 870, with an 820 helm. have not had a replacement for it yet. Every week in my myth+ chest i get a 870+ titanforged piece, that sidegrades or uprades something by 5 ilvls. Never anything significant, like the 840 trinket, or the 820 head, or the 850 belt. Shit drives me absolutely insane. They need to come up with an algorithm that will be partially favorable to a greater upgrade. Yes, yes, rng is rng. But you can at least make it a little tolerable

I play 2 healing specs, have only had 3 Holy relics in a month of Mythics, raids and Wq's. Sadly I am still using the same ones I had from quests while leveling. I feel your pain..

[Sentynel]

9) A fully researched Artifact (34 traits) will be in your mailbox, even for newly made characters

[Pua]

or i think blizz wants people to learn that being the top 1% isnt something you should be driving at.

I think there's a bit of truth in this, to be fair; and I do accept that a lot of it is self-control.

But a never-ending progression system simply seems out of whack, considering the difference it can make. And, like I said, even in more casual guilds, it can suck to be miles behind someone purely because they've played a bit more than you have and have nailed a couple of extra traits.

In 7.1.5 you can buy the first 10 levels with Order hall resources. I think that fixes it. I really dont see a problem with it right now to be honest though.

That's new information for me, thanks.

But I'm not sure it does fix it. Millions of artifact power is needed to get your weapons fully loaded, and the first ten traits are all dirt cheap; they're the ones that make next to no difference.

Well, some players were glamouring for the past. One class, one spec. That is your main. Stick with it. Want to change? Pay the cost. Alts should not be an option.

Ghostcrawler used to talk about this, as far back as Mists - what's enough content for one character, without being punishing on alts? For that reason, I can support artifact power being limited to a character rather than account wide; but, honestly, I think Legion does extremely well with content, particularly the extra stuff that's been piled onto professions.

Does it need a painful, endless grind slapped on top? I'm not sure that it does.

Blizzard has said time and time again, they think it's in a great place and have no plans of reviewing or making changes at the time. So even if everyone keeps making threads "Does X Need a Review?" Blizzard will go, it's fine. Nothing to see here.

Hazzikostas' recent post was on a different topic, but I accept your implication. That said, it'd be silly to assume that Blizzard never change their mind on a subject.

I suppose it's a question of whether or not it's considered a big enough issue by enough players. I mean, I'm only just coming to the conclusion that it might be a problem - as such, I'm interested in knowing if others also find it one.

I think it's fine, just some artifacts could use with path adjustments.

I hadn't even considered that, really, but after having flicked through a few artifacts from classes I don't play (read: most of them), you're right. Some artifact trait building is all over the place.

I'm around 870, with an 820 helm. have not had a replacement for it yet. Every week in my myth+ chest i get a 870+ titanforged piece, that sidegrades or uprades something by 5 ilvls. Never anything significant, like the 840 trinket, or the 820 head, or the 850 belt. Shit drives me absolutely insane. They need to come up with an algorithm that will be partially favorable to a greater upgrade. Yes, yes, rng is rng. But you can at least make it a little tolerable

I was generally quite supportive of the new gearing paradigm but, having now played it for a couple of months... I'm not quite so sold.

Random gearing is, more often than not, a pain in the arse. The issue isn't necessarily helped by raids, when so many people are potentially interested in each drop depending on what actually lands and what state it's in. If anything, it's made gearing worse than it was with reforging, especially given the huge discrepancies between secondaries.

A mage in my guild got a 35-point increase from a legendary, but it sims worse than what he has thanks to it not having critical strike.

That can't be properly tuned.

9) A fully researched Artifact (34 traits) will be in your mailbox, even for newly made characters

That's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so I suspect a dose of sarcasm is afoot here. :P

[ShiyoKozuki]

Agree with OP.
Legion somehow took the worst gearing system(modern mmo) and made it 100x worse.
I congratulate the WOW devs at being so bad at their jobs. It's mind boggling.

[Popko]

No, its doesnt. The system is fine and works as intended.