Restoration Talents in M+

[HungryDucks]

Hey everyone. Just about to get my alt to 110 and I wanted to get some advice on talents taken in Mythic +'s. Do you guys change them up depending if you roll 2 melee dps or 1 melee dps/2 ranged? A run down of what talents you run and the way you approach each mythic dungeon would be interesting.

Also, per instance do you change talents? EOA is more spread out, but BRH is more tight and close. Any shamans changing their talents/playstyle depending on the dungeon?

[Tolian]

I've only done up to +8, so take this FWIW, but I personally run 3/2/1/1/2/3/1 when I'm doing these dungeons. I don't change them depending on the dungeon/composition, because I don't think the other options really become viable at any point with just 5 people. E.g. Deluge vs Crashing, or High Tide vs Ascendance.

One piece of advice that I'd offer is realize that the healing CDs are more likely to be useful on trash than on a boss. Most (not all*) of the bosses are easy enough to handle that I find the CDs are a convenience rather than a necessity. However any number of trash pulls can put people in danger of dying and I'll pop a CD, especially if we are pushing for time on a higher level and pull multiple packs. Ascendance is particularly nice for using during times of heavy tank damage paired with lots of group damage.

Good luck! Resto is pretty well equipped to handle M+, you'll like it.

[JonBeMerkin]

I do +10-13 every week multiple times.

Undulation / Graceful / Lightning / Ancestral / Earthen / Echo / Ascendance

This never changes except i use wind rush totem for VoW/Eye/HoV.

[Ahovv]

15 - Undulation (best throughput for ST healing)
30 - Graceful Spirit
45 - Lightning Surge Totem
60 - Crashing Waves - best throughput for ST healing
75 - Earthen Shield Totem - good with lots of mobs autoswinging the tank, or aoe ticking/sporadic damage as is common on many pulls.
90 - Bottomless Depths - Echo realistically does nothing, Cloudburst is inconsistent. When you are constantly healing a dipping tank, you'll refund mana meaning you spend less time drinking, and never really have mana concerns.
100 - High Tide - there are too many scenarios where you want on-demand aoe healing. The cooldown on Ascendance is far too long to be useful when time is a concern.

[JonBeMerkin]

15 - Undulation (best throughput for ST healing)
30 - Graceful Spirit
45 - Lightning Surge Totem
60 - Crashing Waves - best throughput for ST healing
75 - Earthen Shield Totem - good with lots of mobs autoswinging the tank, or aoe ticking/sporadic damage as is common on many pulls.
90 - Bottomless Depths - Echo realistically does nothing, Cloudburst is inconsistent. When you are constantly healing a dipping tank, you'll refund mana meaning you spend less time drinking, and never really have mana concerns.
100 - High Tide - there are too many scenarios where you want on-demand aoe healing. The cooldown on Ascendance is far too long to be useful when time is a concern.

What level of + are you doing? Because there is no way you are doing anything above 8+ with chain heal being your main source of AoE healing...Theres some pulls that easily require 400k+ HPS and you aren't going to get that by spamming chain heal in a dungeon with bottomless depths and no external cooldown

[Ahovv]

What level of + are you doing? Because there is no way you are doing anything above 8+ with chain heal being your main source of AoE healing...Theres some pulls that easily require 400k+ HPS and you aren't going to get that by spamming chain heal in a dungeon with bottomless depths and no external cooldown

Cute post.

Well, since there is "no way" I'm doing anything above 8s, I guess it's a mystery as to how I've gotten 880+ from my chest each week. Oh well, I suppose we'll never know how it's possible.

[JonBeMerkin]

Cute post.

Well, since there is "no way" I'm doing anything above 8s, I guess it's a mystery as to how I've gotten 880+ from my chest each week. Oh well, I suppose we'll never know how it's possible.

Cute reply..? I meant no disrespect with mine.Everyone uses Ascendance Check for yourself...I'm not here to judge anyone for the talents they choose to use AT ALL. You can use Wellspringe and Cloudburst in M+ and still do your weekly chest that doesn't matter but you aren't going to have good results using High Tide/BD in higher keystones, period. Don't recommend something sub par things to newer players just because you aren't good enough to use the optimal builds...

Bottomless Depths and High Tide in mythic+ dungeons....? Yikes

Check this OP for talents on players tha know what they are talking about!
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ec=Restoration

[Ahovv]

Cute reply..? I meant no disrespect with mine.Everyone uses Ascendance Check for yourself...I'm not here to judge anyone for the talents they choose to use AT ALL. You can use Wellspringe and Cloudburst in M+ and still do your weekly chest that doesn't matter but you aren't going to have good results using High Tide/BD in higher keystones, period. Don't recommend something sub par things to newer players just because you aren't good enough to use the optimal builds...

Bottomless Depths and High Tide in mythic+ dungeons....? Yikes

Check this OP for talents on players tha know what they are talking about!
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...ec=Restoration

You literally typed, "there is no way you are doing anything above 8+ with chain heal being your main source of AoE healing...," proving your lack of understanding regarding mythic dungeons and their requirements. This was not you exaggerating; it was displaying your ignorance.

There was a time where pretty much everyone ran torrent in raids, until top players finally realized Undulation/UL were better in every scenario, so you saw a shift in talents.

I don't log dungeons, but I know what I'm talking about when it comes to resto shaman. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...10/#metric=hps - Feel free to check those orange HPS parses and see how much DPS I was doing simultaneously. Shall we compare to your own logs?

[JonBeMerkin]

You literally typed, "there is no way you are doing anything above 8+ with chain heal being your main source of AoE healing...," proving your lack of understanding regarding mythic dungeons and their requirements. This was not you exaggerating; it was displaying your ignorance.

There was a time where pretty much everyone ran torrent in raids, until top players finally realized Undulation/UL were better in every scenario, so you saw a shift in talents.

I don't log dungeons, but I know what I'm talking about when it comes to resto shaman. https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...10/#metric=hps - Feel free to check those orange HPS parses and see how much DPS I was doing simultaneously. Shall we compare to your own logs?

My name Ahov I get fed innervates on 3minute kills when my chain heal does 50% of my healing. Someone notice me!

Please bro, go chain heal spam some more in m+ with your bottomless depths and high tide build.

[Ahovv]

My name Ahov I get fed innervates on 3minute kills when my chain heal does 50% of my healing. Someone notice me!

Please bro, go chain heal spam some more in m+ with your bottomless depths and high tide build.

Since you didn't link your logs, I'm going to assume they would display weakness.

[Deleted]

15 - Undulation (best throughput for ST healing)
30 - Graceful Spirit
45 - Lightning Surge Totem
60 - Crashing Waves - best throughput for ST healing
75 - Earthen Shield Totem - good with lots of mobs autoswinging the tank, or aoe ticking/sporadic damage as is common on many pulls.
90 - Bottomless Depths - Echo realistically does nothing, Cloudburst is inconsistent. When you are constantly healing a dipping tank, you'll refund mana meaning you spend less time drinking, and never really have mana concerns.
100 - High Tide - there are too many scenarios where you want on-demand aoe healing. The cooldown on Ascendance is far too long to be useful when time is a concern.

yea bro spam that Chain Heal in m+. but for anyone that actually cares, this setup is awful for 5man content so don't copy that crap.

[Ahovv]

yea bro spam that Chain Heal in m+. but for anyone that actually cares, this setup is awful for 5man content so don't copy that crap.

You could always provide an argument in your favor. Ya know, as I stated,

100 - High Tide - there are too many scenarios where you want on-demand aoe healing. The cooldown on Ascendance is far too long to be useful when time is a concern.

So, I'll be totally fair here. You kids go ahead and explain to me where in higher levels of mythic+ you would want Ascendance, and I'll go do it today with High Tide. In addition, I can compile a list of trash pulls in dungeons which output significant aoe damage when you are going for a fast clear, and you would not have 3m between pulls. In these scenarios High Tide would be *objectively* better.

The only case where people in my party ever die on M+, even 10s to 14s, is from 1-shots. Mobs getting enraged etc. and then charging, dealing 2.5m+. By asserting that you *need* Ascendance in higher M+, you are implying that if you had High Tide then players would die to a lack of healing.

[Deleted]

besides the e-penis size, i find different perspectives very interesting.
I'm currently setted on, the standard Undulation / Graceful / Lightning / Ancestral / Earthen / Echo / Ascendance
and i find ascendance to be the best counter for oh!-shit situation (i'm on m+ 6 atm 855ilvl)

But... i also use chain heals a lot, i've never gave a chance to bottomless depths, so maybe its time to pump down crit for more mastery-haste and see what happens.

[Nythiz]

Shame this has to turn out into a childish flame war.

Hey everyone. Just about to get my alt to 110 and I wanted to get some advice on talents taken in Mythic +'s. Do you guys change them up depending if you roll 2 melee dps or 1 melee dps/2 ranged? A run down of what talents you run and the way you approach each mythic dungeon would be interesting.

Also, per instance do you change talents? EOA is more spread out, but BRH is more tight and close. Any shamans changing their talents/playstyle depending on the dungeon?

.
I've been going over the talents frequently for M+. I have only recently switched back to my shaman so I'm mostly just doing up to M+10.
A lot of the talents depend a bit on playstyle and to be frank you can make a lot of them work if you work around them.

My opinion of the tiers is as follow:

T15
For lower level M+ (1-7 or so) I think Torrent is a solid pick. In the higher ones Undulation or UL might provide you with more throughput, but Torrent is quite reliable and in M+ it's very common for your Riptide to be one of your best, if not THE best heal.
Thing I dislike a bit about Undulation is that it's not always providing more healing when I want it the most. UL is nice but costs and extra GCD which is critical time in M+.
I think though that with proper play all 3 options here are an option, depends a bit on the talents down the tree as well.

T30
I really like Graceful Spirit here. Makes your cooldown very accessible and there are a lot of M+ situations (either due to abilties or affixes) where you just can't stand still.
The other 2 are situationally useful as well, but if I had to pick a winner here, definitely GS.

T45
Lightning Surge is easily the best in this tier. Very comp dependent though. I've been in groups with warrior tanks and monks/dh with AoE stuns and then this talent loses a lot of it's worth.
Earthgrab can be useful for affixes like Necrotic. Never really used Voodoo, so can't comment.

T60
This is where things start to get a bit more diverse.
My personal preference here tends to go to Crashing Waves. I quite like the flow of RT->HS/HW->HS/HW, solid single target throughput and having a very high uptime on Tidal Waves.
Ancestral Healing can be a really strong cooldown; I hear it's especially good when combined with Cloudburst. For me personally I think it doesn't outweigh giving up the consistant direct healing output that Crashing Waves provides, but I can definitely see situations where this is useful.
Deluge is not worth it I think. I've tried it a few times in a more CH oriented build. But you'll have to be spamming a lot of CH to make this shine and I think M+ has too much ST healing situations to make this good.

T75
Earthen Shield totem is really good in a lot of situations. If you can't make full use of it you'll want to swap to Ancestral Vigor. The latter is not as good in M+ as Earthen; but it's passive so at least it's always working for you. If you aren't making good use of earthen just swap to Vigor.
I personally just use Earthen.

T90
Again some choice for options here.
Not a huge fan of bottomless depths for M+ myself. Maybe it's good on a CH heavy build or something. With a HW/HS oriented build that I tend to run with Resurgence already procs a lot on HS (due to Tidal Waves) and not sure I need the mana return if I'm using HW frequently below 60% HP.

Cloudburst, some people swear by this. I can see it's benefit. I mean this totem by itself can get you some great AoE healing, but on top of other cooldowns it's really great (Ascendance / Ancestral Healing; but also Gift of the Queen or Wellspring). I like it for raids, but in M+ the pace tends to be a tad too high for this totem. Fights are a lot shorter, you'd really have to predict that massive damage coming well in advance.

EotE is my favorite for this tier. Gives me a certain level of flexibility with my riptides and my HST. To be perfectly frank, when it comes to raw throughput EotE doesn't really add much. You get charges, but if you use riptide and HST on cooldown you don't benefit much from said charges.
The value IMO mostly lies in the fact that:
a) You're not forced to use both of those on CD to get full effect from them. The cooldown keeps rolling while you have 1 charge banked.
b) Flexibility during fights, there are a lot of fights where you start with 2 charges of each so you have the liberty to either spread those charges out or stack them a bit.

I prefer echo; I could see a case for BD at higher M+ levels or if you're going for +3 chests a lot. But I think the consistency in the mana return isn't huge. I think you'll get that mana return and then some if you spend like 1-2 seconds on a drink after each pull.

T100
My choice here is Ascendance. I like having the cooldown here. There tends to be an oh shit moment once or twice per run. Or those huge trash packs where the damage is just really really high.
Ascendance isn't reliable with a 3 min CD, but I found it to be critical at times.

Wellspring just hasn't done it for me. Maybe if you combine it into other cooldowns (e.g. Cloudburst), but I haven't found it to be awesome yet. Although another shaman I know swears by it; each his taste i guess.

I tried High Tide a few times. Maybe it becomes solid with better gear and you can use Chain Heal more reliably, but I don't use CH enough in M+ to make this very solid. The issue with CH mostly being it's cast time and it needs to present you with a situation where 4 people have taken serious damage, are all close enough to make the bounces happen and you need to have the ~2 seconds to cast this thing.

My preference at the moment is:
3 / 2 / 1 / 1 / 2 / 3 / 1

But I have found that there are more options. Depending on your healing style and certain talent combinations.

[Deleted]

Jon, Ahov - This whole exchange wis hilarious. Thanks both of you.

On a serious note, thanks for the advice Jon. I saw a similar post you did a while back and switching to your suggestions made things much smoother.
Still experimenting with your buld vs one with cloudburst over echo. Not sure how much I like echo as I havent had chance to test throughput with each. Cloudburst seems more fun, but not sure how it holds up at the high end since I'm not there yet on my shammy.

[Ahovv]

@Nythiz, if you're not getting usefulness out of the 50% bonus of Undulation all the time, that's a sign you should have been DPSing instead of healing the tank.

If the tank is so high that Undulation would cause your HW/HS to overheal, why are you healing him to begin with?

[itsskitz]

15 - Undulation (best throughput for ST healing)
30 - Graceful Spirit
45 - Lightning Surge Totem
60 - Crashing Waves - best throughput for ST healing
75 - Earthen Shield Totem - good with lots of mobs autoswinging the tank, or aoe ticking/sporadic damage as is common on many pulls.
90 - Bottomless Depths - Echo realistically does nothing, Cloudburst is inconsistent. When you are constantly healing a dipping tank, you'll refund mana meaning you spend less time drinking, and never really have mana concerns.
100 - High Tide - there are too many scenarios where you want on-demand aoe healing. The cooldown on Ascendance is far too long to be useful when time is a concern.

thanks for this

[ItsTiddles]

My "almost every one" build is:
1/1/1/2/3/3/3

I'm a more in-between HS/CH kind of player so I get more use from Undulation, but I don't use CW because between my CHs and Echo riptides, I have plenty of tidal waves. I only really ever switch t75 and t100. I mostly stick with AV, but depending on the group comp I'll run APT. EST has it's moments, but I feel like I'll never get the full use out of it in the majority of the current dungeons. On t100, anything lower than 10 is almost always High Tide and then 10+ depends on the dungeon/affixes.

T90 is a debatable talent depending on your play style. CBT requires a lot of knowledge on incoming damage and in some situations, borderline useless. Bottomless Depths is good if you're having mana problems and sub-60% is frequent enough. The reason I use echo is less for the riptide and more for the other two. Double lava burst for the damage and HST for the 10% DR (artifact trait). 10% generally doesn't sound like a lot, but on 10+ any bit of DR is welcomed in my mind.

[FrogBow]

I'd probably still take echo on that tier if it only gave lava burst 2 charges and did nothing else.

[Zimakai]

I just want to add that I can almost heal a group to full using a single chain heal with a combination of a full stacked Jonat, Unleash Life and High Tide - you can pull some sick chain heals of in combination with our mastery. The Jonat effect is easy to stack and Unleash Life has a relative short cooldown which means that it can mostly be used on demand - I do dislike the global used by Unleash Life.

In cases where I have to do a lot of single target healing not taking Crashing Waves can feel clunky. This does mean that if I don't pick up Ancestral Guidance that I usually do go for Ascendance as I want at least one extra emergency button.

Note that you certainly have to change your build around depending on the M+ affix.