Legion - Subtlety discussion

[Rixan]

Now I haven't run numbers on this but I really feel a 50% energy cost reduction in backstab would solve our problems

It would make recharging dances much less painful but doesn't increase our DPS within dance, maybe 50% is a tad much but I think we can all agree that backstabs energy cost per yield is ridiculous

It would also probably be enough to close some of the gap towards assassination

It would also allow us to be slightly more aggressive with our dance uses knowing that we don't have to be quite as perfect with them

[celinamuna]

Idk why ppl think that WM is better than MoS after goremaw bugfix.
Unless you play perfectly MoS is a lot safer on ST.

But shadow nova change is a dps nerf in +- all situations, so that feels odd.

[Won7on]

Are there any guidelines for when you can switch over from Ass to Sub and do comparable single-target? Do you need specific trinkets? Legendaries? A certain Mastery level?

884 Ass Rogue here, hoping I can branch out into Sub, but the damage is a little underwhelming right now. 330-350k, where Ass does 400-420k (Duskwalker's Footpads are a big part of that). Granted, the Sub weapon is only 25, so I haven't finished Demon's Kill and Precision Strikes, and the relics aren't fantastic right now either.

Armory in my sig if you want to look at my gear.

[Maelstrom51]

All things held even sub catches up around 875-880. But since you have the BiS Assassination legendary sub will likely be behind for you until you get the sub boots (which are getting nerfed in 7.1.5, which will once again put sub behind unless things significantly change).

[Deleted]

All things held even sub catches up around 875-880. But since you have the BiS Assassination legendary sub will likely be behind for you until you get the sub boots (which are getting nerfed in 7.1.5, which will once again put sub behind unless things significantly change).

the boots are no requirement.

you can play sub without boots and still get good numbers.

but you want high itemlvl gear that fits the stat priority and alot of points into sub.

the boots are just the best legendary and give you a drastic dps increse and dump down the rotation so you cant do any mistakes anymore.
after the changes in 7.1.5 they will still be the best legendary for sub but do not take away the whole thinking process of the spec.

a secound point are your current legendarys if you have bis legendarys for your current spec you may dont want to swap over.

and since balancing is not done yet i am not sure if changing spec to sub is reliable.

if blizzard sticks to the strategie to keep all 3 specs close you may just stick to assasination for the easy rotation and the great damage during downtimes.

[PessimiStick]

the boots are no requirement.

If you want to compete with Mut, they're definitely a requirement.

[elfporn]

Are there any guidelines for when you can switch over from Ass to Sub and do comparable single-target? Do you need specific trinkets? Legendaries? A certain Mastery level?

884 Ass Rogue here, hoping I can branch out into Sub, but the damage is a little underwhelming right now. 330-350k, where Ass does 400-420k (Duskwalker's Footpads are a big part of that). Granted, the Sub weapon is only 25, so I haven't finished Demon's Kill and Precision Strikes, and the relics aren't fantastic right now either.

Armory in my sig if you want to look at my gear.

you can definitely switch now.

My recommendation though is to set loot spec to sub, get your next legendary, hopefully either boots or ring, or even cloak.

Get good relics, build up the artifact level - remember that the sub artifact gains dps on most of its traits.

you could probably switch in a few weeks, definitely before nighthold.

As far as stats go, you're decently balanced atm for sub, but will want (obviously) to get eye of command asap.

Atleast you don't have over 50% crit >.< My crit weight just fell below haste....

[Kaluna]

Does anyone has a macro which is working pressing a button once that will start SD and launch a SS ?
I've tried a couple and all of them seem to be buggy. Either the SD is not starting (even if the GCD is clear) or the SS won't go out (have to press it twice).

Thank you.

[Deleted]

If you want to compete with Mut, they're definitely a requirement.

you are wrong on that. you just need to fit the requirements and dont mix up things.

you need high itemlvl (880 or better aboth) and a alot of points in sub weapon(nearly or full weapon)
if you got this requirements and your gear is adjusted to the spec you can compete to equaly eqiped sin rogues.
that sayed the legendays change the game. if you want to compete with a bis legendary sin you need to have the boots.

the fact that you cant make up for is that sin is better with downtimes, so on bosses with high downtimes you may just be even or slightly behind.

Does anyone has a macro which is working pressing a button once that will start SD and launch a SS ?
I've tried a couple and all of them seem to be buggy. Either the SD is not starting (even if the GCD is clear) or the SS won't go out (have to press it twice).

Thank you.

/cast Shadowdance
/cast Shadowstrike

if you want to ensure that shadowdance isnt activated during dance you can add [stance:0] to it.
if you want to use the same bar for dance and combat you can use [bonusbar:1] (better fitting for a shadowstrike macro)

an example:
/cast [stance:0] Shadowdance
/cast Shadowstrike

hope this helped.
btw. the shadowstrike wont trigger if you dont have enough energy what shouldnt rly happen alot.

[Clinkzthebonerogue]

Does anyone has a macro which is working pressing a button once that will start SD and launch a SS ?
I've tried a couple and all of them seem to be buggy. Either the SD is not starting (even if the GCD is clear) or the SS won't go out (have to press it twice).

Thank you.

I use the same macro that venomhunter uses but I do notice some delay. Like the GCD is up but isn't? so I normally wait like a half a second before hitting that macro. Not sure if it's bug or something I'm missing.

[DaGhostDS]

Does anyone has a macro which is working pressing a button once that will start SD and launch a SS ?
I've tried a couple and all of them seem to be buggy. Either the SD is not starting (even if the GCD is clear) or the SS won't go out (have to press it twice).

Thank you.

SD start a GCD if i remember right.

[Deleted]

I use the same macro that venomhunter uses but I do notice some delay. Like the GCD is up but isn't? so I normally wait like a half a second before hitting that macro. Not sure if it's bug or something I'm missing.

its probably related to GCD becouse (correct me if i am wrong) you cant activate SHD during a GCD.
€ SHD also triggers a GCD but this GCD does not effect SS (else you wouldnt be able to fit 5 gcd's into a shadowdance)

[KrassusMMO]

If I understand correctly, this thread is about sub rogue, a discussion about them, and perhaps general feedback. So here it goes, a wall of text with my suggestions.


1. Backstab is not, and will not be a damage ability. It's a last resort filler. the artefact trait that boosts it's damage is bad because 10% of nothing is still nothing. Same goes with Gloomblade. Make the artefact trait smth like "backstab reduces the cooldown of your abilities by 0.1/0.3/0.5 seconds. Make Gloomblade reduce the cooldown of your skills by 0.5 seconds baseline. Together, 1 second reduced cooldown for each cast. You'll still not want to cast them too often, but when you do, it won't feel like you're doing something wrong.
2. Embrace of Darkness artefact trait, shitty shield when entering stealth. Leave the shield if you really want to, but add something like "Feint last 2 extra seconds" or "Feint costs 10 less energy", or lower the Feint GCD, anything really.
3. Ghost Armor artefact trait, bake in the ShadowDance duration here. 0.7/0.7/0.6 seconds per level.
4. Finality to me sounds like something which should happen towards the end of something, no? What about "your finishing moves deal 20%more damage to targets under 35% hp" or the reverse "your finishing moves deal 35% extra damage to targets under 20%hp"
5. Shadow Nova tied to Shuriken Storm is an idea floating around, and it sounds like an easy fix. But as someone else put it, explosions or novas are not very subtle.
6. I see sub as the spec revolving around finishing moves. This has been the fantasy for some time. Yet our finishers are not considerably stronger than others. I would rather lose the Shadow Nova artefact trait and have it say "You can store and use an additional combo point" Assa remains the spec with a higher energy pool, Outlaw has a higher energy regen, let us have an extra CP baseline, for flavor.
7. Nightstalker. I see it buffed back to 50% on the talent calculator, dunno if this is right or not. I would see the speed bonus tied to mastery. 30-50% of mastery or so.
8. If Nightstalker and Shadow Focus remain as they are, and dance lasts an extra 2 seconds based on ATs, Subterfuge will no longer be that attractive anymore. Add an extra effect like Nightblade slows the target by 50% when used from Stealth or Shadowdance. Basically the same as it was before the nerf, but only when Subterfuge is taken.
9. Deeper stratagem. Remove the bonus damage. Make it something like "you can store an additional 2 CP, and finishing moves consume 1 additional CP"
10. Anticipation as is, with the added "finishing moves expose a vulnerability in the target's armor, making the next finishing move you cast on the target within 2 seconds deal an extra 20% damage(subject to tuning)". For ease, it would work like the current Finality, but with a much smaller window, rewarding 2 finishers in rapid succession, and pooling of CP.
11. Vigor, as is, but have the energy regen tied to haste much strongly. Basically make it so that when it is selected, energy regen double dips in haste. It may sound radical, but haste is supremely %^-*ty for us, extreme measures are warranted. Or just make it 25% baseline and maybe we will consider it.
12. Strike from the Shadows is silly right now. Make it so that Shadowstriking from Stealth (not shadowdance) deals an extra 50% damage. Bring back the times when openers were openers, and dealt strong damage.
13. Premed is fine, alacrity would be fine if only we valued haste more (and with the above change to Vigor, we might), Enveloping Shadows needs work. If it had an energy regen component, it would perhaps be worth taking, but it would also make us feel a lot like assa. So keep it as is, and add something like "attacks made against a target affected by enveloping shadows refund 5 energy".
14. Master of Shadows is good with 25 energy or 30 energy. To be quite honest, it could even be 0 energy for me, as long as it worked like the PVP talent, and auto activated Shadow Dance.
15. Death From Above, i've said it before and I doubt I am the only one. Have the animation not go through if in melee range. reduce the cooldown so that it can be used sustainably in aoe scenarios, like 5 seconds, BUT make it bad against single target, not by reducing the final damage component, but by increasing the energy cost to at least 50. Even more elegantly, keep the energy cost down, keep the 20 second cooldown, but have the cooldown reset if it hits 3 or more targets.

The numbers i've put here are of course placeholders, subject to tuning. But you get the idea. Make Sub something special, something people would like to play because they can't get the same playstyle some other place. If it's cool, it won't need to top DPS meters, at least not for most players.

Cheers

[ymirsson]

You want fries with dat?

Infracted.

[elfporn]

need more sub rogues putting up parses on mythic stuff -_-

get to it people

[Reiina]

Subtlety
Shadow Nova (Rank 1) After using Shadowstrike or Cheap Shot, you have a 30% 100% chance to explode, dealing [ 150% of Attack Power ] Shadow damage to all nearby enemies.

[Deleted]

While damagewise this is a nice buff I don't understand why they would just design it to be Akaari v2 - just make it a good AoE talent. Our AoE rotation will be really awkward this way.

[Deleted]

Use SS for damage, shuriken to refill charges.

[Coldkil]

While damagewise this is a nice buff I don't understand why they would just design it to be Akaari v2 - just make it a good AoE talent. Our AoE rotation will be really awkward this way.

This. Until they want us to use SS in aoe and forget Shuriken Storm, this design is basically counterintuitive.

Quoting someone else on this (sorry, i forgot your name):

Shadow Nova (rank 1) using Shadowstrike or Shuriken Storm on targets affected by Nightblade has a X% chance (half chance for Shuriken Storm) to trigger a Shadow Nova on the target, dealing Shadow damage to all nearby enemies.

While simple, the design above covers anything related to an aoe rotation:
- promotes spreading of Nightblade on multiple targets
- gives cleave (2 targets) and aoe (3+) distinct rotations (SS vs Shuriken Storm, pretty easy due to cp generation)
- naturally blends into standard single target rotation (Shadow Dance management)

Really, it's not that hard to come up with similar solutions. If damage is too high they can simply tune it down; i don't really get why they didn't think about it. Tbh going to post this on official forums (at leats it will get a better visibility).

[Deleted]

I suppose it could go well with Dreadlords, use SS to trigger shadow novas and let dreadlord stacks build up a bit then weave in Shurikens when appropriate?