A remotely instructive thread for one time : ancient Sparta, between myth and reality

[vilememory]

The movie 300 is actually a pretty accurate description of Spartan... stories as told by a Spartan. Think of it, this was a Spartan telling the story of a doomed battle. Of course he is going to over exaggerate things. Really demonize the enemy, make up some fantastical stuff to pump up his fellow Spartans. Lots of kick ass imagery, painting the Spartans as super soldiers fighting what amounts to demons and mutants.

[Kalis]

The movie 300 is actually a pretty accurate description of Spartan... stories as told by a Spartan. Think of it, this was a Spartan telling the story of a doomed battle. Of course he is going to over exaggerate things. Really demonize the enemy, make up some fantastical stuff to pump up his fellow Spartans. Lots of kick ass imagery, painting the Spartans as super soldiers fighting what amounts to demons and mutants.

A Spartan version of the Battle of Thermopylae would be "Went to pass, killed some people, got wiped out". They were famous for not saying much.

[sarahtasher]

Yes and no. The depiction of the ephors is grievously inaccurate, as the casual dismissal of religious festivals (which were extremely important in Greece, but with Spartans taking pride of respecting them to the letter)

[Shadowferal]

A Spartan version of the Battle of Thermopylae would be "Went to pass, killed some people, got wiped out". They were famous for not saying much.

They made the word "laconic" (a city in Sparta) into an art form.

[ro9ue]

My favorite part of ancient Spartan history is where he's like "WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION?" and his soldiers are like "AHOO AHOO".

[sarahtasher]

Which was actually reported by historians this one, Spartan were prevented to take any profession but war ,and only hoplites (which led to seriously narrow tactical choices, hello Sphacteria).

This is amongst the things that thinned the citizen corps.

[Zelk]

It probably should be said there isn't a single state around at the height of Sparta's power that is accurately portrayed in popular culture. Athens wasn't the font of democracy it's seen as and Persia wasn't the bogeyman it's often portrayed as.

[sarahtasher]

They made the word "laconic" (a city in Sparta) into an art form.

Laconia is the region where Sparta is. The Spartans actually called themselves ''The Lacedemonians'' (''Sparta'' or ''Spartans'' were never used)

[Kalis]

It probably should be said there isn't a single state around at the height of Sparta's power that is accurately portrayed in popular culture. Athens wasn't the font of democracy it's seen as and Persia wasn't the bogeyman it's often portrayed as.

That is true for pretty much any time period, not sure why it needs a thread on it though - "Reality is not like the movies", is hardly a revelation.

[sarahtasher]

300 is a caricature, but Xenophon already depicted Sparta in a very distorted way.

[Kalis]

300 is a caricature, but Xenophon already depicted Sparta in a very distorted way.

People with agendas have agendas.

Xenophon was not trying to be an unbiased news source. Thukydides is probably the most reliable of all ancient authors, but even he had bias. 300 is mostly based on Herodotus, who wrote in part for an Athenian audience and they were typically anti-Spartan, so his writings leant toward portraying Athens more favourably than it likely deserved and stereotyped non-Athenians.


In defence of Herodotus, he was actually pretty good, but he recounted stories told to him by others, so their bias creeps into his work.

[Puupi]

I didn't know Kalis is an expert in ancient Greek literature.

[Kalis]

I didn't know Kalis is an expert in ancient Greek literature.

I have read a lot on Classical Greece, Hellenistic Greece and Byzantine Greece...there is a theme.

[sarahtasher]

It's sound like saying the obvious, but reading ancient greek authors remains the best source of knowledge about Greece (a book on Sparta, even an excellent one, with footnotes will be a book about Pausannias, Plato, Xenophon and co.)

[Prokne]

If you're looking for reasons why Spartan power declined there are a few things that are missing.

For one, they would probably say that they began losing battles because they violated the advice of Lycourgos to not fight the same enemy too many times so they don't learn your strategy. The Spartans fought the same cities constantly from the Peloponnesian War until Plataea and Mantinea, about 50-60 years. They finally lost when Epaminondas switched up his strategy and fought them head on with his best hoplites. So in part, the Spartans didn't change their tactics after their enemies became familiar with them, and Epaminondas was a genius.

Next, they had many enemies. No Greek city could fight against too many other cities. After their victory in the Peloponnesian War, Sparta became hegemon and angered a lot of the cities under them with their heavy handed administrations (usually oligarchs from the city appointed by Sparta).

Lastly, they did not have a way to increase their population quickly enough to offset losses from constant warfare. Spartans famously exposed their babies if they were not perfect, severely lowering the number of children reaching adulthood. They often had to arm the helots and include them in the army as a last ditch effort.

[sarahtasher]

If you're looking for reasons why Spartan power declined there are a few things that are missing.

For one, they would probably say that they began losing battles because they violated the advice of Lycourgos to not fight the same enemy too many times so they don't learn your strategy. The Spartans fought the same cities constantly from the Peloponnesian War until Plataea and Mantinea, about 50-60 years. They finally lost when Epaminondas switched up his strategy and fought them head on with his best hoplites. So in part, the Spartans didn't change their tactics after their enemies became familiar with them, and Epaminondas was a genius.

Next, they had many enemies. No Greek city could fight against too many other cities. After their victory in the Peloponnesian War, Sparta became hegemon and angered a lot of the cities under them with their heavy handed administrations (usually oligarchs from the city appointed by Sparta).

Lastly, they did not have a way to increase their population quickly enough to offset losses from constant warfare. Spartans famously exposed their babies if they were not perfect, severely lowering the number of children reaching adulthood. They often had to arm the helots and include them in the army as a last ditch effort.

The pratice of child exposition was widespread and the way it's depicted does not really make sense : if the idea was to give one kleros by viable male child, why it seems obvious by all other sources that the Spartan state did not actually gave lands to citizens (IE, a father of four sons did not received four kleros, the sons apparently did not received kleros either at their majority, all four of them could only inherit the single kleros of daddy) and that the citizens were perfectly able to acquire by devious means several kleros (Aristotle and Plutarch both point out that it was illegal to sell your kleros but a-okay to give it...which, as both says, pretty much amount to the same thing in the all, since, like in the Bourgeois Gentilhomme, it ended up with poor Spartans being given money and giving their kleros afterward which is totally not the same thing as selling it...)

[Deleted]

I only accept the movie 300 as an accurate description of Sparta and the way they dressed.

[brimdog]

it's snobbery to contrast history; the Spartans did what they thought was best for their times.
I cant say for certain, but I believe that there have been an untold number of civilizations that, due to their stark remarkableness, have been forever wiped from History. Sparta isnt one of them.
To have held such a society, and in that time, and for it to cause us conversation to this day, speaks volumes of the Spartans.