Burn Outs

[Deleted]

Raiding mythic and being a "progression" raider requires so much more in Legion. M+ grind, AP grind, legendary grind and consumable grind are not for casuals andI think lot of guilds are now realizing that they don't have what is needed to belong to that club.

Playing less, more casual and toning down expectations might help. Mythic is not for everyone and in Legion it is only for the very hardcore dedicated.

[Marrilaife]

Mythic is not for everyone

Why people keep repeating this mantra?

Obviously it's not for everyone. If you don't have enough skill, or you can't devote to even the least demanding raiding schedule, mythic is probably not for you.

However does it really need to have multiple other gatekeepers except those 2 above?

Mythic is already engaged by a very small portion of the playerbase. Let's say WOW has 5 million players and 10k guilds engaged in any form of mythic content in the current expansion, let's say each of these guilds has on average 30 raiders on the roster - most guilds have less, usually 22-25, but some have more or even multiple teams (very rarely). So that's 30 thousand players out of 5 millions. That's 0,6%.

Do we really need to make this "exclusive club" more "exclusive" by artificial gating and keeping out players who are interested and capable but somehow "not hardcore enough"? What's the point of that?

We already had some threads on MMO-champ in the past "let's remove mythic difficulty, not enough players using it to validate devs time spent on it". Maybe they were just a knee-jerk counter-threads to all the "let's remove lfr" ones, but still... I don't think we either need to encourage more people or discourage existing ones from mythic raiding. It's already a very tiny club in the scale of whole WOW.

[Deleted]

Do we really need to make this "exclusive club" more "exclusive" by artificial gating and keeping out players who are interested and capable but somehow "not hardcore enough"? What's the point of that?

There is no point. It's silly as hell. But most of the complaints during WoD culminated in "no content", "nothing to do" - now there is. Loads.And hardcore players have to hardcore, I guess. The will to moderate their own ambitions and look at the holistic picture just isn't there in that scene.

I'm happy with the new design, but I'm just a casual scrub who can set limits to my in-game ambitions (and therefore gametime requirements)
I'm sure there's a whole bunch of "hardcore" players who have or are about to burn themselves out in the grind.

Teachable moment. Maybe they'll learn somethng.
Maybe Blizzard finally stops listening to the "we need more and we need it now"-crowd.

But then again.. lol, who am I kidding.
The exclusive club will always want to make things even more exclusive. That will probably continue.

[Free]

need rested artifact power

[kamuimac]

We are a fairly laid back casual guild who killed Mythic Ursoc on Nov 16 for the first time. We had a roster of around 28 raid-willing members who rotated in and out. Over the course of the last 10-14 days (Thanksgiving break), we lost around 10 people to sheer burn out. They just quit WoW out of the blue. In around 10 years as a GM, I have very rarely seen this level of burn outs in such a short span right in the middle of an expansion. Usually, burn outs like this happen at the end of expac during content drought phases.

Ironically enough, most of the people who quit the game were caster DPS or hunters to the point where we have 3 left (2 mages and a lock).

Are guilds who are similarly progressed like us seeing this level of burn outs?

then you have been incredibly lucky - the point of 2-3 months into tier was always exact point when ton of guilds were dying because people who were coming back for expansion are now bored again ang quiting - its always been part of hardmode guilds thats why being recruitment officer there was always a bitch.

[Echo of Soul]

kinda expected tbh,

extreme m+ grind to level up traits n slot machine rng legendaries with no target farming and after giving everything n still not getting the specific lego to drop, ppl gets burned out

It's what's happened in D3 for years now, it would be naive to not think that the same would happen in WoW with a similar gearing system.

I've always advocated that slow reliable character progression have been best for player retention. Like farming mats in TBC for your epic crafted set, or running a few dungeons every week due to their difficulty and slow pace for your dungeon set, or getting those boots you wanted off he first boss in Black Temple after 2 months.

[trm90]

Happening to my 2-night guild as well, and it's hindering progression a bit. After we downed M Ursoc half a month ago, people began to disappear. We have a "core" roster of about 15 people, but we only have 3 regular healers. Haven't been able to progress on Dragons for two weeks because we can never get more then 4 geared healers in our group at the same time.

I mean, is it normal I'm feeling burn out myself? I have a regular job, an SO, other hobbies etc and I feel like if I specifically plan 5 hours per week to show up and progress and we barely make any... it's just mentally exhausting after a while. I totally get that wiping is a part of the process, but for morale it would really help if we downed a boss, even an easy boss with shit loot, sooner rather than later.

[Coldkil]

We are a fairly laid back casual guild who killed Mythic Ursoc on Nov 16 for the first time. We had a roster of around 28 raid-willing members who rotated in and out. Over the course of the last 10-14 days (Thanksgiving break), we lost around 10 people to sheer burn out. They just quit WoW out of the blue. In around 10 years as a GM, I have very rarely seen this level of burn outs in such a short span right in the middle of an expansion. Usually, burn outs like this happen at the end of expac during content drought phases.

Ironically enough, most of the people who quit the game were caster DPS or hunters to the point where we have 3 left (2 mages and a lock).

Are guilds who are similarly progressed like us seeing this level of burn outs?

Tbh in my guild it's happening a similar thing, but we are a VERY VERY VERY laid back guild - even the core players have been playing for 12 eyars now and Mythic raiding is completely out of our league given also the fact we have quite a bunch of underperfoming people in the roster.

Our raid has cleared ToV normal just last night. Nothing special, but getting a full raid is becoming harder already because people show only for loot day and then disappear, with some already gone and first tier isn't even out.

It's not something unexpected to happen, but it's going really soon compared ot iotehr xpacks (usually people stop playing after first raid tier or during second one).

I cannot speak for myself - i simply cannot follow a raiding schedule due to IRL commitements (looggin late and not even the same days) so i'm resorting to the LFG tool and just normals. I'm trying my luck with ToV this week hoping for a semipremade - EN has been pretty easy but it's also pretty undertuned; ToV is way more punishing and i don't know if pugging it will be successful.

[dmfg]

Tbh I think the burnout issues would have been better if blizzard had made it clearer how low the reward/time spent ratio on mythic+/AP was. Something like a tool in the dungeon journal where you could enter the item you wanted eg titanforged 890 trinket and it would tell you the do rate is "0%, don't even fucking bother".

I would have also liked to see the AK knowledge bonus at 100% per step instead of 25%, to reinforce how pointless it is to burn yourself out trying to grind it out.

[Deleted]

It's amazing how everyone uses every single normal development to justify his/her own opinions. Some people left WoW after 2-3 months? Well, for the last 3 (maybe more) expansions, that has always been the case. This is the Instant Gratification crowd that plays something because it's new (like Legion) and then doesn't stick it out when it becomes more difficult. They'll be back with Nighthold and then leave again when it's on farm a while.

Yet: So many people in this thread use this now to justify
- It's because of Legendaries, I've always said that they will ruin the game
- It's because of random loot in PvP, I've always said that this will ruin the game
- It's because of the nerf to mages, they are willlingly ruining the game
- It's because there is too much content. I've always said that too much content ruins the game. Except when I said that no content ruins the game. That also ruins the game.

Really funny to read!

[prwraith]

Idk I think in an effort to continuously make raids harder they're losing touch with what makes raids fun. Bashing your head against a wall five million times isn't fun anymore.

Raids are about getting friends together to kill big bad bosses, not getting friends together and attempting to kill big bad bosses for weeks / months.

Of course people burn out, it's not fun gameplay.

[Deleted]

A lot of content, but that also means a high chance of burning out by simply playing.

The content aint that varied for a raider, its a non-ending spiral of mythic+ farm after raids are done. It stop being fun after a short while, but if you want those legendaries for higher percentiles and shit...

[Lens Hunter]

When Legion first launched I played my Boomkin hard. Mythics every week, every single World Quest, tried to use every advantage I could to advance my item level in preparation for raids. Raids come out. I push into Mythic+s and go hard. Two months in, I had had enough. I switched my main to Hunter. Caught up in AP, and now all I do is Emmissaries every day, EN Normal and Heroic, make sure to get a +10 mythic+ done, and show up for raid nights. Its all I can do any more.

[Deleted]

For pure dps classes it's a nightmare. Oh hey, fire got nerfed and arcane got buffed? Time to regrind your whole artifact and legendaries as if you were a reroll! Not surprised mages, warlocks and hunters are the first ones to burn out.

It wouldn't be such an issue if Blizzard managed to balance classes on beta and not tried to rebalance them in 3 live patches, but alas, Blizzard never manages to fix things during beta, it's always "let's launch it like this and see what happens".

I also know several people who have jobs and families and play this game for years and say they enjoyed wow when you could play it 12 hours a week and not 40. The endless m+ grind to stay afloat is killing them, for example now the fact getting 35th point in the artifact proved to be such a big deal while before we thought it won't be necessary until nighthold so everyone can take it slowly.

Then don't grind. People not being able to stop is another problem.

- - - Updated - - -

Idk I think in an effort to continuously make raids harder they're losing touch with what makes raids fun. Bashing your head against a wall five million times isn't fun anymore.

Raids are about getting friends together to kill big bad bosses, not getting friends together and attempting to kill big bad bosses for weeks / months.

Of course people burn out, it's not fun gameplay.

Then do easier content like heroics/normal/lfr? You will ave friends gathering together and not wiping much and receive rewards according to your effort. I don't really get it why some people want to do the hardest content and complain they wipe. Then just do easier one instead of wanting to nerf top difficulty content. Shallow ego is what it is that someone feels entitled to "do" the hardest content.

I do heroics, cleared them and do it with a group of friends too. We did some mythic bosses but it's not a priority.

[Soikona]

I think it is. Legion is great and the AP/mythic+ system undoubtedly is one of the best features ever added to the game. The only problem is, Legion's improvements come too late for many players.

I can not agree. Those are my two least favourite features of Legion.

[Raakel]

AP + Suramar grind are slowly killing it for me. I can't see me doing this on a second toon again as on my main. I simply hate Suramar an beeing forced into that zone and sart to feel burned out on my main. Right now I'm starting to level more toons to max and don't keep up with all BS you have to do anymore. But it kind of feels like beeing on a sinking ship... I'm likely to take a break beginning of next year and return after a few months when catch up mechanics are implemented. I don't see me wasting all that time and effort for nothing other than the forced gating.

M+ is fun and is the only thing that keeps me going currently....

[prwraith]

Then do easier content like heroics/normal/lfr? You will ave friends gathering together and not wiping much and receive rewards according to your effort. I don't really get it why some people want to do the hardest content and complain they wipe. Then just do easier one instead of wanting to nerf top difficulty content. Shallow ego is what it is that someone feels entitled to "do" the hardest content.

I do heroics, cleared them and do it with a group of friends too. We did some mythic bosses but it's not a priority.

I didn't say I Was burning out

But you have to admit SOMETHING isn't working with raid guilds losing members in droves.

[Soikona]

I didn't say I Was burning out

But you have to admit SOMETHING isn't working with raid guilds losing members in droves.

I have heard of it a lot. Raiding just is not rewarding enough now when you have mythic +. It's faster, easier and better chance of gear. Raiding for progression, is a concept that is dying.

[Low Hanging Fruit]

It happens. Great guilds along side shit guilds die every day and have in every expansion. Usually when it's in such a huge wave though something else has happened. Maybe people/leadership were demanding they live life in mythic+. Maybe the raid environment got toxic. I mean it's also possible for the dominos to fall in line that once one friend finds out someone is quitting it gives them the excuse in chain but 10 people seems extreme for that.

[Deleted]

I didn't say I Was burning out

But you have to admit SOMETHING isn't working with raid guilds losing members in droves.

ours isn't.

It's only highlighted like this because guilds that don't lose members don't come here and create threads "we are not losing members". What you hear is always the vocal minority. When you complain about somehting you are more mobilized to take action than when you're satisfied