Something needs to be done about M+ and its negative impact on the game

[Deficineiron]

This is a personal problem, not a game problem. I also do not have the time to spam M+ and yet I do not feel compelled to whatsoever. I would argue that caps are actually more unhealthy for the game, because then suddenly I WOULD feel compelled to hit the cap each week. At the mo I just pick it up when I get time and have fun. That's better.

Also, what exactly is wrong with rewarding people who spend more time on something? If they put more in they should get more out of it.

this is 2016. it is generally expected for all players to easily reach a plateau of rewards no matter time spent, with small added bonuses incrementally from there based on time/achievement etc. on selected efforts.

[Deleted]

The players are the problem, not the m+ system. Most of the players exaggerate with the requirements for invites in m+ groups. The difficulty of m+ is not grown since day one, but the ilvl or av requirements are. For the same shit we did with heroic or normal mythic dungeon gear without any prob, the ppl are looking for 880 or +10 av now. This is what makes it hard for the rearguard or casuals to catch up.

[ArmatisUlv]

Now there are two threads on M+ and it's broken system on MMO-C. Both of them with thousands of posts and views. Hopefully Blizzard pays attention (I know it's not official forums, but they read this forum along with Reddit).

The system isn't broken. The system works fine. You put time into it and you get loot. The Maw of Souls boosting isn't any different from raid boosting or challenge mode boosting in the past(Unless there is real life money involved). Just because you grew up and had a family or got a life now doesn't mean Blizzard needs to cater to you personally just because you want to put less time into the game and get the same back out of it as say, the top 1% of the player base.

There doesn't need to be a weekly lockout or reward reduction or anything. I have 2 main M+ groups that do a lot of M+ a week and then I am helping my guildies get higher then +5. The people who are complaining either don't like M+ in the current format because they THINK it is broken or because they feel that they are forced to do it. Neither are true.

Leave M+ alone, if you cannot do it then that isn't their fault. That is like a bad player saying shit is to hard and they want it nerfed when they just suck at the game.

[Regalbeast]

Leave M+ alone, if you cannot do it then that isn't their fault. That is like a bad player saying shit is to hard and they want it nerfed when they just suck at the game.

You were saying coherent things until this comparison.

[Deleted]

**Edited - see bottom**

Now before you freak out and tell me I'm stupid, hear me out....

As a former hardcore player (not hardcore progression, but hardcore like 6-7 hours per day) that can only play .5-1 hour a day, M+ is killing the ability for me to progress in terms of gear and AP when compared to other players. M+ is fine in and of itself, it is a fun way to keep dungeons relevant throughout the expansion and gives players something to do. We should not feel forced to run M+ to stay ahead of the curve or even slightly near the curve, that is bad game design.

However, there needs to be a cap on how many times you an run a M+ in a day or in a week OR the rewards need to scale down after you run a certain amount per day. For the majority of players, we don't have time to run M+ all day or even for 4-5 hours in a row. The players that do run these all day have a very, very significant advantage when it comes to AP and gear.

Blizzard has stated that they don't want the game to be just about time sink. Well, Legion is a giant time sink of an expansion, more than I've ever experienced myself (played for 12 years).

If Blizzard wants to stay true to their design philosophies and intent, then they need to put some limits on M+ grinding.

EDIT:

Honestly you guys, instead of flaming and insulting me, how about you come up with something coherent and intelligent in response? Instead of "hur dur time played you suck" maybe you should present an alternative viewpoint? Or is that expecting too much?

Tell me what you have against capping M+ runs at let's say 14 a week, that's 2 per day.

Myth+ is the best thing in this game right now. If it was not for Myth+ me and just about everyone I know would have unsubscribed already. It is a viable alternative to raiding eventhough the easiest way to gear is still Mythic Raiding. The chances of getting a 890+ items through Myth+ are small and in raid it is high.

The item rewards from Myth+ are already weak. 865 items for Myth 10? Heroic EN is probably comparable to Myth 7 level and gives 865.

Capping the amount of Myth+ you can do is an outrageous suggestion. This would mean I can't do Myth+ with my friends who do not have twinks because why would they go Myth+ if they already capped out.

My advise to you is if you don't want to farm Myth+, don't farm Myth+. It is that simple. It is your choice. It is not needed to grind AP hard to raid unless you are in a top 10 world kind of guild. And if you are in such guild well I am afraid regardless of Myth+ you would still invest a ton of time doing split farms or doing heroics to get those titanforge procs.

People who farm hard 24/7 will only be 3-5 traits ahead at maximum. That is 2.5% dmg at best and I really doubt they can stay 5 traits ahead of people who play a reasonable lot with the way it scales.

Blizzard does not want the game a time sink, Myth+ are not a time sink it is actually playing the game.

I could agree on introducing a weekly AP cap but I dont think it is necessary at all. The super hardcore players who only play and don't work will be a few traits ahead. That is not a significant advantage at all.

[Mojo03]

The real question is why are these people wasting so much of their life on this and how can we help them to live their life better?

They probably should cap AP. Then again, I don't care and I think people that grind that much are morons and are wasting their life.

It'll be funny in a few months when I spend literally two hours playing to get all the AP they spent literally months wasting their life getting. But actually probably more sad.

This is why its stupid. Focus your energy on more important things in life.

[Jewsco]

The real question is why are these people wasting so much of their life on this and how can we help them to live their life better?

They probably should cap AP. Then again, I don't care and I think people that grind that much are morons and are wasting their life.

It'll be funny in a few months when I spend literally two hours playing to get all the AP they spent literally months wasting their life getting. But actually probably more sad.

This is why its stupid. Focus your energy on more important things in life.

God yes can't wait for those threads and posts on how much work they put in and now people are getting AP and ak so easily. When they add those catch up mechanics it should be fun around here

[M2tt]

Mythic plusses are more than okay, one of the best things they have added.

[Fullmetalmoo]

don't worry nostalrius is re launching soon

[kamuimac]

God yes can't wait for those threads and posts on how much work they put in and now people are getting AP and ak so easily. When they add those catch up mechanics it should be fun around here

ye cant wait when it will be AK level 25 as baseline - or AK 50 if they add more and more traits each tier will be hillarius "i farmed MoS+ for 3 months to get 35 traits and now they get it in 1 wq - blizzard so unfair"

[Deleted]

The players that do run these all day have a very, very significant advantage when it comes to AP and gear.

And the guys at the gym can only train with 5 lbs weights when you're not there, right? Because otherwise they'd have an advantage and that'd be super unfair...

Yeah, imagine that. People who can dedicate large amounts of time to something have an advantage... That's how it's always been in this game, in anything. The people who could dedicate 8 hours a day to wiping on the same content, well, they got the first boss kill and the nice trinket before anyone else. Was that a problem? The people who could spam battlegrounds and arena all day, well they got the shinier pvp-stuff. Was that a problem? I'm sure you see the point...

So that being the case, why should other people have their efficiency in the game diminished, just because you don't find yourself in a situation where you can keep up? Do you really, honestly, feel so entitled that everybody else should be restricted because your life has changed and you only have an hour to play every day? I'm sorry, but how is that anyone's problem but yours? And what do you suggest that people do after running their weekly mythic-allowance in a day and a half? Force them into playing content they might not enjoy? Make alts? Log off?

Seriously, mate, what in the actual fuck are you talking about?

- - - Updated - - -

The real question is why are these people wasting so much of their life on this and how can we help them to live their life better?

They probably should cap AP. Then again, I don't care and I think people that grind that much are morons and are wasting their life.

It'll be funny in a few months when I spend literally two hours playing to get all the AP they spent literally months wasting their life getting. But actually probably more sad.

This is why its stupid. Focus your energy on more important things in life.

To some people, wow is important, even if it means just being ahead of the curve for six months. To others, badminton is important. Or collecting dolls. Or building popsicle-houses. Don't presume to know what constitutes a good life for people who aren't, well, you.

Also, they could reward you all the traits absolutely free, but they hardcore m+ grinders will still be ahead due to grinding gear for months. It's not how I want to spend my time either, but to each their own

[impending doom]

And the guys at the gym can only train with 5 lbs weights when you're not there, right? Because otherwise they'd have an advantage and that'd be super unfair...

Yeah, imagine that. People who can dedicate large amounts of time to something have an advantage... That's how it's always been in this game, in anything. The people who could dedicate 8 hours a day to wiping on the same content, well, they got the first boss kill and the nice trinket before anyone else. Was that a problem?

Good that you brought up this gym comparison. Firstly to maximize your progress at gym you have to train at progressively higher levels (like wiping 8h on hard boss), you won't get any gains if you keep lifting easy weights that don't push you to the limit (like endlessy farming easy content). Secondly resting is as important than actual training, you can't train at gym 8h every day and expect it to be beneficial, or even healthy.

In sports people use money/sponsors to get gear so they can spend most of the time Training to get better. In wow people have to spend most of the time grinding gear and smaller part actually Training to get better, that's the problem.

[Regalbeast]

Good that you brought up this gym comparison. Firstly to maximize your progress at gym you have to train at progressively higher levels (like wiping 8h on hard boss), you won't get any gains if you keep lifting easy weights that don't push you to the limit (like endlessy farming easy content). Secondly resting is as important than actual training, you can't train at gym 8h every day and expect it to be beneficial, or even healthy.

In sports people use money/sponsors to get gear so they can spend most of the time Training to get better. In wow people have to spend most of the time grinding gear and smaller part actually Training to get better, that's the problem.

I agree, it's a bad comparison. Thanks for calling it out.

[Groven4]

I thoroughly enjoy Mythic +, but I do agree that the rewards should be less than that of raids. Raids should feel special and harder to accomplish, thus more re-warding.

Unfortunately this expac I have gotten more enjoyment from Mythic + kills over raid kills. This might be just me and that fact that I know longer raid Mythic. Overall Mythic + is a wonderful addition to the game just needs some small tuning.

[Concequence]

Personally, I think you would be one of the people crying "There is no content" after putting that cap on the content

The problem is balancing the "I use all my free time to play wow" crowd with the "id rather not use all my free time to play wow to be competitive" crowd. The fact that there is no cap. Means the first set, can spend "infinite" time, and become "infinitely" better than someone who doesn't. Meaning there are unhappy people who feel forced to also do that to keep up, who honestly don't want to, but WILL fall behind if they don't, so they do anyways. Or will try...

Its like this. Lets look at no gating and gating methods.

Bob and Jim are both given an entire meal, every course. Neither can get up until they both finish, or a set amount of time passes. Bob eats much faster than Jim. Bob finishes in 30 seconds, and immediately starts complaining that he wants to get up, and it sucks that Jim is so slow. Jim however feels pressured to go at a pace he isn't comfortable with.

Now in the second setup, Bob and Jim are given a single course each. Bob of course finishes more quickly. Jim is still pressured to move faster, but he has less to make up for, so the pressure isn't so bad. The second course comes out. and eventually the third. Overall Bob is now forced to slow down, in via gated segments. And Jim can make up the distance easier. Gating, or Trickles of content have eased Jim's discomfort, and only Marginally disturbed Bob's breakneck pace. Everyone is still moderately happy. Bob gets content on a schedule and isnt craving so badly waiting for Jim or the time limit.

The third unreasonable example is the Legion example. The meal never ends. The preverbial Valhallan Sæhrímnir. Bob can eat as fast as he can forever... or until he dies. Jim is sickened by this madness, and gives up entirely, knowing he will never catch Bob, eating only as much as he wants slowly. the difference between Bob and Jim grows exponentially as time progresses, causing a staggering gap between them. aka Bob is a fat pig, the fattest of pigs, the piggiest. (also ultimately no one ever gets up from the table, and the meal is never over...)

[analmoose]

I thoroughly enjoy Mythic +, but I do agree that the rewards should be less than that of raids. Raids should feel special and harder to accomplish, thus more re-warding.

Unfortunately this expac I have gotten more enjoyment from Mythic + kills over raid kills. This might be just me and that fact that I know longer raid Mythic. Overall Mythic + is a wonderful addition to the game just needs some small tuning.

but they aren't. m+10+ is rough, especially if you aren't raid geared. I don't raid, i'm only 875 from running m+, it's not easy. Raid gear proccing titanforge will outlevel m+ proccing titanforge, unless youre doing 10+ and at that point it's much more challenging than H EN

[Regalbeast]

Your brain doesn't seem to compute that these concerns are selfish and yours, not indicative of millions of others players you pretend to speak for. I actually feel sympathy for those of us who have tried being rational with you. One has to wonder if you're deliberately this obtuse.

My brain has computed this thread just fine, thanks. You seem to think that I'm the only person in all of Azeroth that doesn't like M+.

I've been called selfish more times in this thread than I have my entire life. It's pretty funny to be called selfish over a video game, I actually have had quite a few laughs. The fact is: M+ is too rewarding in it's current state, and something needs to be done about the mechanics as well (people leaving, keys depleting, MoS being most rewarding to run, etc, etc). Too many WoW addicts or fanboys can't seem to admit it though.

Read the response below by Concequence for some great logic on why it needs to be gated.

[Aquinan]

So you have less time so you want to punish people with more time.....yeah no.

[Regalbeast]

So, now you're changing your stance? Let me drop a knowledge bomb on you, dude. Just because you think something is a fact, and a small (VERY SMALL) group of people agree with you, doesn't make your statement fact. There is absolutely nothing factual about "M+ is too rewarding in it's current state, and something needs to be done about the mechanics as well" That is your theory, that is an opinion, that is HYPERBOLE. You used the word yourself, I presume you know its meaning.

You're obviously trying to change the subject. Your first grievance was that you played less and should be able to hang in there with people who play more, and you crawfished away from that already. I guess those people are the addicts and fanboys you just tried to insult? Which has been addressed more times than I can count. So you lost that debate. And now you're switching to a safer argument that the system in general is "too rewarding," which you've coined as fact because it came from the almighty, passive-aggressive Regalbeast.

Yeah, deliberately obtuse. How does one expect to have intelligent conversation with someone who dodges as much as you. You still seem to think you speak for more than yourself.

/ignore

Nice, don't let the door hit you on the way out. Have fun wasting your life away in M+

[ohgasauraus]

Not a big fan of M+...i dislike the timed runs but I completely understand the gameplay that would rise of not timing it.

I enjoy more (way more) raids than dungeons. More space,more people,more focus on bosses and less on trash,more mechanics(more complex)....more fun.

So the question I ask is ...if we have M+,why gate raids?
And im not asking for a EN+ where you can endlessly farm the raid but a system that let you do it again with a reduced loot/chance or something like that.Just a draft something like: 20%(1st)->10%->5%->....

I dont have a exact system on my mind but since a lot of you said: "More effort more rewards"...I ask :why the effort must be made on dungeons? Why cant I raid endlessly with a system that would end up giving me the same rewards as M+ on avg?
Why "ungate" only dungeons?

The raid is not gated, and they implemented reduced loot chance, the chances goes from some chance to get loot to 0% chance to get loot Blizz did not prevent you to go into the raid or redo the raid. I do it most of the time to help friends do their raid when they need help even though i have already completed it once that week. It all about perspective and whats your goal in doing those raids in your own context.