A Simple Argument for the Tinker Class

[Thimagryn]

You. Are. Dodging. The. Question.

I answered pretty clearly. Multiple times.

"why don't we see technological equivalents anywhere that is not a goblin or gnome settlement?"

We do. We have a Dwarven District, a Goblin Slums full of scrap tech, and Tinker Town. These Dwarven, Human and Orc settlements.

[Pantalaimon]

Anyone who makes the claim that Tinker can't be a class because of Engineering has an EXTREMELY LIMITED IMAGINATION. To quote myself from another thread:



And since posting that originally, I've had other ideas for it. So saying that a class can't be added because it's similar to a profession no longer qualifies as an argument.

Wow another agility tank & dps spec. How original. Not like the game has enough of those. Oh wait, it is essentially shaman with a tank/dps/heal setup & technology/steam punk cosmetic slapped on it.

Tinker dosn't not work because it exists as a profession in game it is because when you exclude the cosmetic 'differences' behind the class it is hardly that different than what the current WoW classes already offer from gameplay, mechanics, utility, etc.

The game does not need more classes, period. There is nothing that can fit within the holy trinity setup of mmorpgs (tank, dps, heal) that drastically is different from everything offered up to this point and that would also really be needed in pvp and pve. New classes are simply redundant by this point.

[Teriz]

Expel Harm (for Brewmaster Monks) has the exact same functionality. Funny how you harp 'how the Monk got gutted in favor of DH', that instead of giving it a new mechanic for the orbs, they do the exact same thing they did for the DHs. And I find it funny how you go on to harp on the Brewmaster 'Gift of the Ox' thing, a skill that was quite clunky at times as it forces the tank to move around, as the orbs could land all over the place. They just downplayed the ability that not many BrM Monks used in the first place, and gave the Brewmaster Monk a new mechanic, more in line with the spec's core design: drunk fighting.

Yeah, which is why it would have been better to give Monks the ability to gather all of their orbs with an ability. Unfortunately DHs got that ability, and Blizzard made GotO worse and still as clunky as ever.

Thanks for making my point.

[Ielenia]

I answered pretty clearly. Multiple times.

"why don't we see technological equivalents anywhere that is not a goblin or gnome settlement?"

That wasn't the question. This was the question:

"poor-as-shit"? How do you know? I'm pretty sure it's safe to assume they had access to gold mines to pay for everything. But suppose you're right, that technology is so cheap that "poor-as-shit" orcs could buy massive arsenal of huge war machines, down to even battleships: if that's the case, why isn't technology present in every single settlement? Just like we see magic ever-present in blood elf settlements in the form of floating potted plants or enchanted brooms sweeping the streets by themselves, why don't we see technological equivalents anywhere that is not a goblin or gnome settlement?

We do. We have a Dwarven District, a Goblin Slums full of scrap tech, and Tinker Town. These Dwarven, Human and Orc settlements.

Dwarven District? Other than the entrance to the Deeprun Tram, there's nothing really high-tech. Orgrimmar's goblin slums and Ironforge's Tinker Town? That's a part of those cities were only goblins and gnomes live, respectively, given to them to be their own "home" after their original home cities were destroyed. Tinker Town may have been originally Dwarven, but it's a Gnome settlement, through-and-through.

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Yeah, which is why it would have been better to give Monks the ability to gather all of their orbs with an ability. Unfortunately DHs got that ability, and Blizzard made GotO worse and still as clunky as ever.

Read the very first ten words of what you quoted. Actually, I'll do you one better. I'll repeat them for you:
Expel Harm (for Brewmaster Monks) has the exact same functionality.

[Teriz]

Wow another agility tank & dps spec. How original. Not like the game has enough of those. Oh wait, it is essentially shaman with a tank/dps/heal setup & technology/steam punk cosmetic slapped on it.

Tinker dosn't not work because it exists as a profession in game it is because when you exclude the cosmetic 'differences' behind the class it is hardly that different than what the current WoW classes already offer from gameplay, mechanics, utility, etc.

Professions can't perform the same function as a class.

Additionally, a technology theme would allow combinations of gameplay, mechanics, and utility that other classes can't perform individually.

Your argument is like saying why have a Death Knight class when we already have a Paladin class, completely ignoring that those two classes provide a lot of thematic differences to the point where they are polar opposites of one another, and distinct from other classes in the game.

The game does not need more classes, period. There is nothing that can fit within the holy trinity setup of mmorpgs (tank, dps, heal) that drastically is different from everything offered up to this point and that would also really be needed in pvp and pve. New classes are simply redundant by this point.

Using that argument, Blizzard should have stopped with Warrior, Rogue, Priest, and Mage.

[bloodmoth13]

So the main reasoning behind not introducing the Tinker class is because it's roll is filled by the engineer profession, right? But in my opinion the two are not one in the same. Take Warriors, for instance. Warrior class fantasy is all about two things: Armor and Weapons. Yet the Warrior doesn't forge their armor and weapons, the Blacksmiths do. A warrior CAN be a blacksmith, but it isn't necessary. The engineers only supply the gear and tools tinkers use and modify, its up to the tinker to use those tools effectively in the heat of battle.

Yeah its a shitty argument that the profession negates the class.

Enchanters use magic to enhance items, doesnt stop mages from existing!

its a very poor argument imo, engineering does nothing to alter how you play, it does nothing to fulfill the tinker fantasy, you cant play as an engineer, you use engineering as a profession, and professions have no affect on how you play your class and havent for a long time.

I personally think the tinker should have an apothecary spec based on healing with potions, and i dont think it would in any way affect how alchemists feel about their profession.

Professions produce items and enhancements for other classes to use, they dont necessarily have to use them themselves, its a job to make money, actual gameplay is decided by a class.

Tinker furthermore is just an incredibly fertile fantasy that isnt represented in game at all, could easily develop completely unique playstyle and would have 0 overlap with existing classes. Other classes i have seen suggested dont have that luxury, necromancer overlaps far too much with DK/warlock/shadowpriest to feel like a welcome addition to the game. Many other classes suggested dont have the lore to organically develop off specs such as dark ranger, shadow hunter(shaman wiht a bow), priestess of the moon etc. Tinker on the other hand i could easily write 4+ specs that would be completely unique from eachother and from any other spec we currently have.

I am personally surprised we got monks before tinkers TBH, only real unique thing that monks have is unarmed combat and asian-ness, beyond that though...

[Pantalaimon]

Tinker dosn't not work because it exists as a profession in game it is because when you exclude the cosmetic 'differences' behind the class it is hardly that different than what the current WoW classes already offer from gameplay, mechanics, utility, etc.

Professions can't perform the same function as a class.

Additionally, a technology theme would allow combinations of gameplay, mechanics, and utility that other classes can't perform individually.

Your argument is like saying why have a Death Knight class when we already have a Paladin class, completely ignoring that those two classes provide a lot of thematic differences to the point where they are polar opposites of one another, and distinct from other classes in the game.



Using that argument, Blizzard should have stopped with Warrior, Rogue, Priest, and Mage.[/QUOTE]

Gameplay need for new class > thematic need for new class

Making a new class because it is technically possible to give a single class abilities that multiple individual classes have is not a good reason to make a new class. Again that is just redundant. I'm not going to be pro new classes for arbitrary flavor reasons when in the end it just fucks up raid balance and pvp balance majorly all over again. Unless it is seriously breaking the mold for not only how a new class can play, but breaks for the mold for providing groups with something significantly unique I see no need.

[Thimagryn]

That wasn't the question. This was the question:

I swear you don't even read any of my replies. You do realize you literally quoted the same question that I quoted from that EXACT statement. It's the same question you blind bat.

Dwarven District? Other than the entrance to the Deeprun Tram, there's nothing really high-tech. Orgrimmar's goblin slums and Ironforge's Tinker Town? That's a part of those cities were only goblins and gnomes live, respectively, given to them to be their own "home" after their original home cities were destroyed. Tinker Town may have been originally Dwarven, but it's a Gnome settlement, through-and-through.

You asked where there was technology present in a non gnome/goblin settlement. Now you're moving goalposts to say 'it has to be high-tech'. The question was answered, you're just not satisfied with because it's not meeting your fictional standards.

So answer my question - What does ANY of this have to do with Tinkers? If not, we're getting way off topic.

[Teriz]

Making a new class because it is technically possible to give a single class abilities that multiple individual classes have is not a good reason to make a new class. Again that is just redundant.

I didn't say that. What I said is that a Tinker class is different enough thematically from other classes that it has a higher chance of offering different mechanics, utility, and gameplay from existing classes. Further it offers a substantial amount of purpose and lore to two longstanding WoW races.

We have Tinker abilities from WC3 and Heroes of the Storm, and those abilities offer a glimpse of a potential class that is far different than anything else currently in WoW.

[deviantcultist]

This obsession with silly/lighthearted stuff is one of the reasons we don't get things that are nice enough most of the time.

Of all the fantasy concepts, Tinker? Seriously? This means that we will deal with content that will feature Gnomes and Goblins as much as Pandaria featured Pandaren. In other words, a setting even sillier than Hearthstone.

I guess you can expect that much from a community that has a large portion considering a faction like the Horde as "cool" or "badass". Don't mean to offend anyone, that's just my personal opinion.

[Ielenia]

You asked where there was technology present in a non gnome/goblin settlement. Now you're moving goalposts to say 'it has to be high-tech'. The question was answered, you're just not satisfied with because it's not meeting your fictional standards.

Of course it has to be high-tech. Otherwise you can point at a simple wind mill on a backwater Gilnean settlement and say "look, technology!"

So answer my question - What does ANY of this have to do with Tinkers? If not, we're getting way off topic.

Ok.

There are two ways one could go with a technology class: either a common person that gets himself a nice high-tech arsenal, or an engineer that builds himself a nice high-tech arsenal. Now, technology, outside goblin and gnome settlements, is very, very rare. So rare it borders on non-existent. With that in mind, a character that would need to find someone or something else to upgrade their gear because they didn't build it themselves, would find himself quite in a bind, unable to upgrade himself unless he went to a goblin/gnome settlement to acquire better arsenal. However, that brings us to issue #2: the rarer something is, the more expensive it is. Not to mention we're talking high-tech gear here, which makes things even more expensive. And our character starts their adventures with nary a penny to their name (goblins being the exception-but-not-really, as they start rich, but half-way through their starting zone they lose all their money and equipment).

So that leaves us with just one option: the character builds their own arsenal. That's more in-line with how the classes start up: with nothing to their name but the flimsiest, basic gear for their class, so the tech class would begin with some armor, pants, boots and a common gun, and just a generic shot ability to start, and would gain more tech-related abilities as he "levels up" and grows in engineering knowledge, technically 'building' himself a better arsenal. Now we find ourselves at an issue. Yes, in gameplay terms, one is a "class", the other is a "profession". But, in lore terms, they're the exact same. Characters with tech knowledge who can build wondrous machines. The only thing separating them, is a gameplay distinction. Maybe that's fine for some people, but for anyone who cares about lore, that's a pretty big, glaring issue.

As I said before, the only way I can see a tech class happening is if Engineering gets gutted and completely remade, becoming a tech version of the Enchanting profession, and no longer being focused on gadgets and guns.

[Sansnom]

So the main reasoning behind not introducing the Tinker class is because it's roll is filled by the engineer profession, right? But in my opinion the two are not one in the same.

What is a Tinker class? Forgive my ignorance but what would a Tinker class offer new? Shoots with rifles? But that is what hunters do. Run around with a mech, that is a variation to a Warlock and Hunter. Lay traps? Again a Hunter and I doubt a class focus on putting traps and HOPING something would step on it would make it rather difficulty to play.

I am aware people has been asking for it. But I am wondering what is so special about the Tinker class that makes people wants it so much.

[Racthoh]

A simple argument against the tinker class: there's no reason to add them, and there never will be unless they make Goblins vs Gnomes a WoW expansion.

DKs - Added in the Lich King expansion
Monks - Added in the Pandaren expansion
DHs - Added in the Legion expansion

See a trend here? We're not going to get a random new class that has no thematic similarities with the expansion itself. Every class has had massive tie-ins with their contemporary expansion, how could they possibly do the same for "tinkers"?

well by the looks of things it looks like azeroth might need some greater technology to deal with the spaceships in the skies and reach the darkness at the bottom of the ocean. gnomeregan will be a city once again and with it the new technomancer class with ranged tank capabilities.

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What is a Tinker class? Forgive my ignorance but what would a Tinker class offer new? Shoots with rifles? But that is what hunters do. Run around with a mech, that is a variation to a Warlock and Hunter. Lay traps? Again a Hunter and I doubt a class focus on putting traps and HOPING something would step on it would make it rather difficulty to play.

I am aware people has been asking for it. But I am wondering what is so special about the Tinker class that makes people wants it so much.

a mail class for starters, one that can heal and probably also tank.

[Teriz]

This obsession with silly/lighthearted stuff is one of the reasons we don't get things that are nice enough most of the time.

Of all the fantasy concepts, Tinker? Seriously? This means that we will deal with content that will feature Gnomes and Goblins as much as Pandaria featured Pandaren. In other words, a setting even sillier than Hearthstone.

I guess you can expect that much from a community that has a large portion considering a faction like the Horde as "cool" or "badass". Don't mean to offend anyone, that's just my personal opinion.

There was very little silly about the Iron Horde, Siegemaster Blackfuse, or Gelbin Mekkatorque in Legion.

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Ok.

There are two ways one could go with a technology class: either a common person that gets himself a nice high-tech arsenal, or an engineer that builds himself a nice high-tech arsenal. Now, technology, outside goblin and gnome settlements, is very, very rare. So rare it borders on non-existent. With that in mind, a character that would need to find someone or something else to upgrade their gear because they didn't build it themselves, would find himself quite in a bind, unable to upgrade himself unless he went to a goblin/gnome settlement to acquire better arsenal. However, that brings us to issue #2: the rarer something is, the more expensive it is. Not to mention we're talking high-tech gear here, which makes things even more expensive. And our character starts their adventures with nary a penny to their name (goblins being the exception-but-not-really, as they start rich, but half-way through their starting zone they lose all their money and equipment).

So that leaves us with just one option: the character builds their own arsenal. That's more in-line with how the classes start up: with nothing to their name but the flimsiest, basic gear for their class, so the tech class would begin with some armor, pants, boots and a common gun, and just a generic shot ability to start, and would gain more tech-related abilities as he "levels up" and grows in engineering knowledge, technically 'building' himself a better arsenal. Now we find ourselves at an issue. Yes, in gameplay terms, one is a "class", the other is a "profession". But, in lore terms, they're the exact same. Characters with tech knowledge who can build wondrous machines. The only thing separating them, is a gameplay distinction. Maybe that's fine for some people, but for anyone who cares about lore, that's a pretty big, glaring issue.

Doesn't that simply mean that Tinkers can only be Goblins or Gnomes since both races are around technology constantly and the VAST majority of technological geniuses in Azeroth are Gnomes or Goblins?

As I said before, the only way I can see a tech class happening is if Engineering gets gutted and completely remade, becoming a tech version of the Enchanting profession, and no longer being focused on gadgets and guns.

Engineering has already been gutted. Read the forums.

Not that the health of a profession has anything to do with a class discussion.

[Kolvarg]

Yes, in gameplay terms, one is a "class", the other is a "profession". But, in lore terms, they're the exact same. Characters with tech knowledge who can build wondrous machines. The only thing separating them, is a gameplay distinction. Maybe that's fine for some people, but for anyone who cares about lore, that's a pretty big, glaring issue.

As I said before, the only way I can see a tech class happening is if Engineering gets gutted and completely remade, becoming a tech version of the Enchanting profession, and no longer being focused on gadgets and guns.

Sorry to intervene, but it might help as I believe you are mixing what you and Thimagryn are discussing with what you and I were discussing. Here is one of his first statements on your talk:

I think that's the core issue then. Tinkers, in the context of class discussion, exist purely as a gameplay distinction. Lorewise, there is no way to separate them from Engineers until they get formal backstories that render them canonically different.

"Tinker" and "Engineer" are just words, that vaguely describe the same (lore-wise) thing. But one can give or take different meaning to words depending on the context, in the in-game case it's simply to be able to differentiate between two similar things. That doesn't change the meaning of the word in every other context.

For instance, as I understand the Warcraft RPG sees it both (Engineer and Tinker) as combat classes, where Engineer is basic a Tinker that specialized in a specific field. That doesn't mean every Engineer is a specialized tinker in the lore, or that every tinker and every engineer uses their gadgets for combat. It just means in that game, those words have that specific meaning.

The two things being the same lore-wise does not imply they need to be the same gameplay-wise, especially since the "Tinker Class" doesn't even need to be named "Tinker". It could be named "Battle Engineer", or whatever else. The distinction is based on gameplay terminology, "Class" and "Profession". In-game Tinker (Class) could indicate someone that creates and upgrades technological gear to use in combat. In-game Engineer (Profession) indicates someone that follows patterns to create gear for a multitude purposes, but that doesn't include them in their fighting style.

WoW classes are, in essence, not lore-friendly. With the exception of hero classes, perhaps, the class names have much broader meanings in the lore.
A "Hunter" in the lore/universe isn't necessarily an adventurer that uses ranged weapons and whatnot. It might just be a peasant who hunts game for resources.
A "Warrior" in the lore/universe isn't necessarily a battle-hardened veteran who specializes in melee weapons. It can be used to refer to pretty much anyone who fights in battles.
A "Priest" in the lore/universe isn't necessarily seen as a caster who uses holy and shadow magic to heal friends and damage foes. It might just be a member of the church who never sees any fighting.

If you take them simply by the name, classes are already detached from lore, as they are strictly a gameplay concept. If you look at classes and professions for what they are - gameplay terminology - the existance of "Tinker" as Class and "Engineer" in the game does not deny that there are people in the lore called Tinker that don't see combat, and some called Engineer that do see combat.

Sorry for the intrusion, just wanted to try and clear it a bit.

[De Lupe]

There was very little silly about the Iron Horde, Siegemaster Blackfuse, or Gelbin Mekkatorque.

Gazlowe too.

And Gallywix may be a bit ridiculous, but he's still dangerous when he needs to be.

[Ielenia]

Doesn't that simply mean that Tinkers can only be Goblins or Gnomes since both races are around technology constantly and the VAST majority of technological geniuses in Azeroth are Gnomes or Goblins?

That is technically a possible solution, but we still have the "tech class and engineers are the same in lore" problem.

Engineering has already been gutted. Read the forums.

Don't try to play coy. You know full well what I meant, since it's explained in the very paragraph you quoted.

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"Tinker" and "Engineer" are just words, that vaguely describe the same (lore-wise) thing. But one can give or take different meaning to words depending on the context, in the in-game case it's simply to be able to differentiate between two similar things. That doesn't change the meaning of the word in every other context.

I've given my idea of what Blizzard could do to make both distinct, in both lore and gameplay, by basically reworking the Engineering profession and make it more or less a tech version of the Enchanting profession, giving "upgrades" (enchants) to pieces of gear that enchanting doesn't, like helms, chest pieces, boots, etc. The profession would no longer make gadgets such the repair bot, portable mail box, teleporters, would not craft mounts. Completely reworked, from ground up.

[Thimagryn]

Of course it has to be high-tech. Otherwise you can point at a simple wind mill on a backwater Gilnean settlement and say "look, technology!"

Dwarven District, Tinker Town and Goblin Slums all display high-technology and are non-Gnome/Goblin settlements.

If you need more examples of non-Goblin settlements with high-tech, look at the Draenei Artificers, the Ethereals, the Mo'arg and the Iron Horde. Technology is present around the world, you will simply make excuses that it doesn't fit your fictional standards. You will say 'well this is magic' or 'you can't play as these races', even though your original question does not stipulate against any of these; you asked where technology is present in the world.

There are two ways one could go with a technology class

Nope. There are an infinite ways one could go with a technology class. The 'one' way that you present here is only an example of what you deem acceptable. The game doesn't revolve around you, therefore I'm not going to substantiate this as anything more than pure opinion. Simply said, there is no one way.

Imagine if someone argued against Demon Hunters and said there was only one option that a Demon Hunter could be added - by removing Metamorphosis because Warlocks had it. Would you agree with them?

As I said before, the only way I can see a tech class happening is if Engineering gets gutted and completely remade, becoming a tech version of the Enchanting profession, and no longer being focused on gadgets and guns.

Engineering is a profession, so yes, it's a tech version of Enchanting. If it were more powerful than enchanting, no one would ever use anything other than Engineering. Heck, this was even a problem for years with PVP, until Blizzard banned/limited the use of Engineering enchants in PVP.

As for Engineering no longer focusing on gadgets and guns- Tinkers can't make guns and gadgets for other classes while Engineers can. If you remove this aspect from Engineering, then where are Hunters going to get their epic crafted weapons from?

[Ethenil]

A simple argument against the tinker class: there's no reason to add them, and there never will be unless they make Goblins vs Gnomes a WoW expansion.

DKs - Added in the Lich King expansion
Monks - Added in the Pandaren expansion
DHs - Added in the Legion expansion

See a trend here? We're not going to get a random new class that has no thematic similarities with the expansion itself. Every class has had massive tie-ins with their contemporary expansion, how could they possibly do the same for "tinkers"?

I suggest you check out in wowpedia the 'Molten Eternium Sea'.

[Ielenia]

Dwarven District,

No tech other than the entrance to Deeprun tram.

Tinker Town

Gnome settlement.

Goblin Slums

Goblin settlement.

Nope. There are an infinite ways one could go with a technology class. The 'one' way that you present here is only an example of what you deem acceptable. The game doesn't revolve around you, therefore I'm not going to substantiate this as anything more than pure opinion. Simply said, there is no one way.

Now I get the feeling you're being confrontational solely out of spite. There are just those two ways to go with the class: either the character gets the equipment from somewhere or someone, or the character builds the equipment himself. There is no third way.

Imagine if someone argued against Demon Hunters and said there was only one option that a Demon Hunter could be added - by removing Metamorphosis because Warlocks had it. Would you agree with them?

Like you, I'd say they're wrong, but unlike you, I'd explain them that both could still keep the ability. By the way, your mistake here was presenting a scenario were someone was presenting only one way in the presented hypothetical scenario obviously offers two ways.