Protection legion Discussion

[Voyle]

Well, it's not (the current rotaion is not a great challenge) but it is a little bit more "engaging" with weaving of FR, etc.
With Devastator and the "loss" of FR (baked into Vengeance) your rotation basically turns into 2 buttons that you press when off cooldown.

Now I don't think that it's as big of a deal as some people make it but it IS simpler, you can't deny that.

You have 2 CDs and 2 Procs, that is twice as many of each than the current gameplay.

[eksdra]

My greatest concern with the lack of Ultimatum and FR is how it affects our dps when we aren't actively tanking anything. On Nythendra, Renferal, Ursoc, Cenarius (last phase), and Xavius, there are long periods where you aren't the active tank. If we aren't getting hit, Revenge isn't going to be free or resetting. The RFDT model already screws us harder than the other tanks while offtanking, but the removal of Ultimatum and FR is just further punishing us.

[Valech]

My greatest concern with the lack of Ultimatum and FR is how it affects our dps when we aren't actively tanking anything. On Nythendra, Renferal, Ursoc, Cenarius (last phase), and Xavius, there are long periods where you aren't the active tank. If we aren't getting hit, Revenge isn't going to be free or resetting. The RFDT model already screws us harder than the other tanks while offtanking, but the removal of Ultimatum and FR is just further punishing us.

This indeed may be a minor concern. I hope they do the tuning right with the other abilities, like the buff to thunderclap damage.

[Stallion]

After testing the new changes on the PTR, I have to take back my extremely negative stance towards Devastator. While there are certainly moments with no procs that you just have to pause, with Revenge now resetting Shield Slam too, it's not that bad anymore. Most of the time there's buttons to push.

I think I even preferred it to a standard Vengeance rotation after the patch and I can now describe more clearly why Revenge feels clunky for Vengeance: You have so many abilities resetting Shield Slam now that it's up quite often. When it is up, you want to use it to not waste it and give the other abilities a chance to proc another one after using it. However, here's the dilemma: If you have the "Reduced Revenge cost Vengeange buff" you must use Revenge asap though to be able to use Ignore Pain with reduced cost. Shield Slam being ready so often results in either not being able to get a reduced IP asap if you use Shield Slam first before Revenge or wasting a potential Shield Slam reset by using Revenge first (20 rage gain wasted and less dps single target?). There's just two rules in my brain intereferring and I have to choose which one to fail, that feels clunky.
The second reason why it feels clunky is due to the simple fact that Revenge has a cooldown. If you are drowning in rage, it is hard to dump it while following Vengeance order because you can't use Revenge twice in a row.

Btw, I recorded some small footage from the PTR with three different talent builds and uploaded it to youtube. I'll go ahead and create a thread for that now. Have a look if you're interested.

[eksdra]

However, here's the dilemma: If you have the "Reduced Revenge cost Vengeange buff" you must use Revenge asap though to be able to use Ignore Pain with reduced cost. Shield Slam being ready so often results in either not being able to get a reduced IP asap if you use Shield Slam first before Revenge or wasting a potential Shield Slam reset by using Revenge first (20 rage gain wasted and less dps single target?). There's just two rules in my brain intereferring and I have to choose which one to fail, that feels clunky.

The second reason why it feels clunky is due to the simple fact that Revenge has a cooldown. If you are drowning in rage, it is hard to dump it while following Vengeance order because you can't use Revenge twice in a row.

The solution to the first dilemma is probably a weakaura. The solution to the second is to not have a CD on Revenge at all.

[Stallion]

The solution to the first dilemma is probably a weakaura.

I have that of course but if you have both Shield Slam ready and enough rage for Revenge + Ignore pain with reduced Revenge cost and you want to use Ignore Pain, you have to wait with using Shield Slam which usually has highest priority and use Revenge first because it's on gcd. I mean it's not the end of the world and you could say it's positive that we have to pay a bit more attention to the situation but it does feel clunky for me being used to live where anything rage dumping / vengeance related is independent of rotation because it's off the gcd.

[eksdra]

I have that of course but if you have both Shield Slam ready and enough rage for Revenge + Ignore pain with reduced Revenge cost and you want to use Ignore Pain, you have to wait with using Shield Slam which usually has highest priority and use Revenge first because it's on gcd. I mean it's not the end of the world and you could say it's positive that we have to pay a bit more attention to the situation but it does feel clunky for me being used to live where anything rage dumping / vengeance related is independent of rotation because it's off the gcd.

It'll come down to tuning, and whether you value more damage (assuming Shield Slam is higher damage than Revenge on however many targets you're currently tanking) over the gain of 1 Rage from Revenge, since a 35% reduction on IP is only 21 rage saved vs 20 gained from Shield Slam. It really could be as simple as Shield Slam > Revenge for 1 target, Revenge > Shield Slam for 2+ targets, based on damage tuning.

When we had FR, you could get both the reduction and the 20 rage in the same GCD. Now you get one or the other, and they're roughly equal in terms of rage gained/saved. The choice is purely whether you're in an aoe situation or not.

At least, that's how I'm seeing it.

[Lysozyme]

Why? I mean I am not saying we need an easy to play talent that's viable, for all I care make it harder to play but what's wrong about having a talent choice for situations where survivability is important (going Indom) and one for "low-ish" Mythic+ where you can survive without it and contribute to the speedrun with higher DPS?

I don't like Devastator because I don't like low APM specs. It's just my personal preference.

[suprep]

I don't like Devastator because I don't like low APM specs. It's just my personal preference.

While I agree with your point my earlier PTR testing on the greater tanking mob did not result in low APM compared to live and I managed to hold out for roughly 3:30 min up to 15-16 stacks, if you just test the DPS rotation then it is very dull indeed (shield slam, revenge, TC).

It would indeed be nice if Revenge did not have a CD (I don't really see a _need_ for this, but of course I can see this being somewhat OP paired with Ravager on massive AoE).

[eksdra]

While I agree with your point my earlier PTR testing on the greater tanking mob did not result in low APM compared to live and I managed to hold out for roughly 3:30 min up to 15-16 stacks, if you just test the DPS rotation then it is very dull indeed (shield slam, revenge, TC).

It would indeed be nice if Revenge did not have a CD (I don't really see a _need_ for this, but of course I can see this being somewhat OP paired with Ravager on massive AoE).

The removal of Focused Rage reduces my APM by about 13% (7-10 apm depending on the fight). There's nothing filling in this gap since Revenge is on the GCD and I'm already GCD locked.

[Milocow]

free-revenge buff doesnt really have a buff nor duration indicator

should make it last forever... its so annoying when you have enough rage after your IP and you gonna use revenge then it just expires..

[Chrno]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CMy85TqwcJg

For what its worth

[Deleted]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CMy85TqwcJg

For what its worth

I disagree with some points he brought up, but he made a clear point that devastator could become a problem. Its the only talent that has direct impact on our DPS and this alone could force us into this talent. Its also worth to mention that the last buff to revenge (ss reset) was also an indirect buff for devastator. In high damage situations we get alot of rage and can use revenge all the time. So with and without devastator every gcd is a SS reset chance gcd, with devastator also giving our auto hits a SS reset chance. This gives us more rage (maybe not enough to make up for the 25% indomitable lose), but we get a really high SB uptime on low haste. I have 18% haste on my PTR char and it was rare for SB to even drop, before i died vs the big dummy (~3 min. depending on the try).

I wasnt one of the devastator haters at the start of the 7.1.5 PTR, but thank to the latest revenge buff i have a bad feeling.

[server22]

any1 tested already if devastator benefits from http://www.wowhead.com/item=134542/j...rus&bonus=1826 ?

[Llarold]

any1 tested already if devastator benefits from http://www.wowhead.com/item=134542/j...rus&bonus=1826 ?

It is a separate attack that triggers on each swing, so probably not. Won't hurt to test, if someone has one.

[Stallion]

I've heard the second time now that people manage to survive >= 3 min on the greater sparring partner. Just curious: Is that with Mannoroth's? I managed 3:30 on PTR but that was with Never Surrender, Prydaz and Mannoroth. It probably would have been 2 minutes max without Mannoroth but I haven't tried.

[Milocow]

It is a separate attack that triggers on each swing, so probably not. Won't hurt to test, if someone has one.

every autoattack triggers the legendary
just tested it

edit : prydaz is so fucking strong
47k hps with 4.7m hp
not even sure kakushan gloves are defensively strong anymore
1 rage extra and 4 rage extra on tc and ss respectively..? ehh ill take 47k hps
the dmg boost is non negligible tho gotta admit that

[Llarold]

every autoattack triggers the legendary
just tested it

He linked Melandrus' Jeweled Signet (+10% autoattack ring). Yes, Kakushan's Stormscale Gauntlets trigger on autoattacks with Devastator, but that has been known.

[Auru]

Just messing around with prot in the PTR at the moment and well.. it feels pretty bad, I liked that I had to properly manage my rage to get more dps before.. why are they even doing these changes? Prot seemed fine to me before this :z

[server22]

How's Chronoshard trinket being ranked for wars with Devastator talent?