Suramar Elven Armies; The Blood Elves rise!

[Rhlor]

Just a quick observation here (not a fight). The highborne haven't joined Darnassus, they've just allied with it. They are not ruled by the night elves, and part of the conditions of their alliance is that the Highborne will not have any restrictions on their use of magic imposed by the night elves, nor would they be required to change their culture, but instead would live in their own ways. Anyone who joins them would have to join their own way. - Wolfheart.

In effect they operate like an Order not unlike the Sisterhood or the Druids, but are also a people. They don't mix or integrate, but they help one each other out. It's a mutual arrangement, one Malfurion and Tryande are reported to have fought to make happen on their behalf against opposition we find out originated from Maiev. But by the start of cataclysm, this was the status quo.



So I find myself in one of these rather rare moments of late that I am in agreement with something you say. Indeed @Exceillion , he is right. It has been shown that Night elves need a lot of help, and they know it. this is what we are been shown, and it is not what I wanted to believe of them or admit, but that is the situation. The extent of it was shown in their lifting of the exile on the highborne from their company and of the ban on using arcane magic. And while the philosophical reasons for not using the arcane ended with the arrival of the legion mainly, the night elves still didn't use it until Cataclysm - which shows you they were desperate enough to do so. What was surprising to me was how quick the night elves were reported to take to it, how eager. Prior to that I had thought they didn't like magic, and that they were right about, I even criticiszed the move by blizzard. But a lot of things I thought were the case turns out the lore showed were not. So I went through it all over again, carefully looking at exactly what they blizzard had written.

I found it wasn't the lore that was inconsistent, but my view - the night elves went from "could do no wrong", "amazingly abled super elves" to a desperate people pushed to the edge, short on resources, overwhelmed and outnumbered, and having to dig deep. This was the whole premise of accpeting the highborne. initially they didn't want to do it as the senintel in wotlk 3.4 showed , but Tyrande is the one that felt it necessary and broke with the druid dominated ideal to let them in. Her husband Malfuion also agreed with her and Mordant Evenshade.

The results of cataclysm were experienced for all of us. Despite the night elves' new additions, they didn't win any of their advances. They lost Azshara, bombed in Stonetalon mountain and had their stronghold in Desolace eradicated. It was the exact opposite of what I had thought of them. However they didn't entirely lose either, they survived, I think that this was because of magic that had returned to them, helping just barely enough to allow the alliance hero and human forces to provide vital relief before Ashenvale and Stonetalon mountain were totally lost, helping them at least maintain their presence their despite their heavy losses.

I haven't seen night elves have any show of force since their introduction before the final battle atop mount hyjal agians tthe re0invading legion force. I conclude that there forces were heavily depleted which prompted their need to actually make an alliance unable to stand on their own two feet as a neutral 3rd entity.

Blizzard effectively neutered the night elves by having them join the alliance. Since then we have seen them unable to actually succeed or survive without human intervention or worgen or draenei - they've been weak, and the legion arriving has further depleted their resources - Look how many sentinels join you in the broken shore campaign.. look how few join the fight against Ysera with the Priestesses in Val'sharah - they don't have much left at all, and strategically are weakened, but hey, they still show up. What little they can spare, the high priestess herself goes to her city of birth with the best she can muster after the troubles in Val'sharah. The wardens are decimated, their prison run by demons, their numbers so low they can't staff or defend their towers so the Forsaken and Gilneas (horde and alliance) now move in to possess.

Everywhere on the broken isles where night elves appear is much death and loss, and though at least this time they are shown to fight with a bit more spine than in cata, they have taken the brunt of the losses there. Not the shal'dorei are much different. it's their home turf, but they're only a city, and as it stands now in this week of 7.1 the civilians have all sided with the rebels and evacuated the city to take up arms against Elisande and those loyal her. Led by Thalyssra, they are a people divided, joined by the smallest armies in both alliance and horde in the night elves and the blood elves.

Nobody else answered the call to help the nightborne or stop the Legion there. Not the orcs, nor humans, nor trolls, tauren, goblins, dwarves or gnomes - still licking their wounds from the broken shore, the elves seem to have thrown what they have against the legion in Suramar, the night elves most of all. It is no wonder Tyrande is keen the nightborne stand up for themselves in this conflict, which she marked with what seemed like a satisfaction even a hint of gladness and relief that they INSIST on playing a part in the conflict. So she instructs you to help assist and train them as much as possible - the more shal'dorei that join the conflict the less of her own forces would have to give their own lives - because they aren't that many left and they really can't afford it - but hey.. the situation is desperate no?

Dislike how intense i get in my explanations or not, this is what we are shown if we follow the story

It is worth remembering that the blood elves (highborne) fought alongside the kaldorei resistance in the war of the ancients. Dathremar sunstrider saved the life of tyrande

[Friendlyimmolation]

Still...they kept up on the path of magic and what happened? They're going down the same path as Azshara did...embracing the Legion and it's power.

except in both cases the majority of them turned against the legion loyalists.

[ravenmoon]

Still...they kept up on the path of magic and what happened? They're going down the same path as Azshara did...embracing the Legion and it's power.

I don't think anyone who knows the situation will agree with that. The whole point this shows to anyone is not that those who go down the path of magic embrace the legion - we've seen druids, WARDENS, rulers, simpletons, nobles - take that path, for diverse reasons, power, and incredulously as in Elisande's case, in order to save her people.

We've seen just as many good and powerful mages oppose, amongst the nightborne - or do you intend to ignore not only Thalyssra but the littany of rebellion characters the majority of which are mages, most exceptionally skilled too, a lot of talent too, from nobility like Thalyssra, Lunastre and Astravaar to civilians like Vanthir, Margaux or soldiers of the duskwatch (the neew version of hte moonguard) in Silgryn and Victoire and the many who turned at your approach, or freedom fighter units like Arluin (who passed) and his team ( who are still alive).

Look how easily the druids were corrupted by the nightmare, you think anyone who's following the story wouldn't see that? It's not just arcane that can be corrupted. Or did you forget arcane is actually a pure source of order used phenomenally for good by the night elves till Azshara summoned the legion, also used for good by the high elves and many others, Different from druidsm, yet used together by the night elves. The dread druids willingly chose to aid the nightmare, or have you forgotten the druids of the flame led by Fandral or the druids of the fang in wailing caverns.

By now it is quite clear one can be corrupted, psychologically or magically, or physically too. Some personalities willingly schoose evil and corruption responding badly to their circumstances with worse choices or un-informed ones, others are twisted by other means, pushing the frontiers of magical development cause unwtittingly. Corruption can come in all forms. the solution is not to destroy existence (like Sargeras feels) but to redeem and restore it.

You don't destroy arcane magic because people got corrupted, or nature magic and the emerald dream, or wipe out a nation or group if they can be saved. If you can cure the problem with fruit from a tree, or remove the corruption or cleanse the source of power - will you not do it? Some people, like the dying naaru who gave itself to revive the sunwell font will do so even if it meant their own lives - the night elven lives and wisps that sacrificed their life force to save the world, the heroees the went into the belly of the nightmare to remove a corruption ... I wonder if Tyrande will make such a choice herself, rather than cling to prejudice and insist the nightwell be destroyed after all is said and done, would instead cleanse a corruption by calling on the goddess after seeing healing and balance restored the nightborne and highborne night elven people gripped by the imbalance from 10,000 years go.

No, once over reaction dies down, it shoudl be clear to see it's not magic that is the cause no, at least not arcane or nature as they are inherently good that is the cause of all the trouble, though i wouldn't be surprise if some human cult emerges that makes all magic its enemy - because some magic is bad. Fel for example, it corrupts the body utterly (this is the sacrifice the DHs speak of) and they are locked in a constant struggle for their soul from within - a struggle many of them seem to be winning.. until they are not) - they instead iembrace this corurpting source to use it to produce good, their resolute determination accessing a power deep within their soul (the light) that is strong enough to withstand even the utterly corrupting influence of fel. Hence why Illidan becomes a champion of the light. However ofc, don't you dare go near such power in order to save others if you're not willing to sacrifice everything .. for it will utterly corrupt you as it did the noble shaman Ner'zhul and look what he became.

Malfurion was right Fel is dangerous, too dangerous, but he was wrong that his brother wouldn't be able to master it without remaining pure of heart, and inspire others to tap into that inner strength to do so.

So, it's not the nightborne on the path of magic that is respnsible for the direction Elisande has chosen. THis is not exactly like Azshara, Elisande's decision was made purely on her logic after examining the timeways for 3 days. In the time Gul'dan gave her, she couldn't see any other way out, ti was not being affeceted by magic that did this. the nightborne have shown that despite the curse of the nightwell their faculties were unaffected by their magical usage, only their bodies were changed in this strange way. It was only when going without the nightwell that the curse manifested itself their faculties only going when they descend from nightfallen into Withered, something the story of Theryn shows us, a nightfallen on the cusp of transitioning into withered - losing his good conscience and even pride as he battles his hunger to an extent we never see any other nightfallen we react to even come close to, making us realize the point at which are nightborne in the nightfallen state has his mind surrendered to madness by the curse.

No magical influence was responsible for Elisande's decision which is not the case for Azshara, and likewise, magic did not dampen or diminish Thalyssra or any of those who joined her's resolve to eliminate the great enemy of the night elven people and drive them from her beloved city saving her kin and Azeroth alike.

yes, whether Maiev wants to admit it or not, her view coloured to long by her hatred of magic users, Khadgar, Evenshade, Thalsyssra are all examples of great magic users who have stood at great peril to themselves against the evil and not sucumbbed to it.

No, no elf of sane mind and right faculty will fault magic, they would know the character of a person would determine their pre-dispoisiton as is always the case unless influenced unduly magically or by other external effects to choose against their core nature.

And so the elves live with their shame, despite the pride of thier great accomlishments, their opinion of themselves exposed and undermined by the folly of their hubris. They get it. The night elves do, the nightfallen have just gotten it, something Valewalker Farodin attests too during the quest chain. It is called the humbling process. Yet not all do, one wonders if Valtrois and Rommath have actually gotten it- they do remain quite aloof.. and for sure, until they are beaten by us in the Nighthold. Elisande and her loyalists don't get it.

- - - Updated - - -

It is worth remembering that the blood elves (highborne) fought alongside the kaldorei resistance in the war of the ancients. Dathremar sunstrider saved the life of tyrande

https://hydra-media.cursecdn.com/wow...80495174d7c855

Yes, indeed, a debt Tyrande wants to honour when they meet up with "young Kael'thas Sunstrider" in TFT. Whiles many of us spot the change in direction between night elf blood elf relationships blizzard took in TBC - it wasn't that hard to predict and also understand. Afterall, not all night elves think the same. You have one extreme in Maiev who have been suspicious and anti anything magic, and you have more moderates like Tyrnade - or Malfurion, who's decision wasn't motivated by hate or fear, but by logic as the best course of action for his people given the circumstance and situation they were in back then.

When the situation and facts had sufficiently changed after emerging from their isolation 10,000 years later and winning a second war against the legion, guess what, they change their stance on magic. They even work to bring their whole society to the view without exception "it must be unanimous", yet Maiev stood in opposition to it for bad motives, her hatred, fear and imbalance leading her to criminal action she gets exposed for, showing that not all night elves feel the same way.

THis was reflected in the druid under Fandral where some sided with him, and some with the Cenarion circle.

Blizzard did build legitimate case for conflict and enmity on both sides following the story they told in TBC with the choices the blood elves made both with the prince, illidan, use of fel magic, treatment of spies and ultimately joining the horde and using their willingness to slaughter alliance lives as a demonstration that they had severed their former ties. They then continue to build on that with the battles in Azshara and Desolace where the two elves meet in resounding victory for the blood elves.

Still, Tyrande is no where near as anti-blood elf as Vereesa is, not even close, which makes me wonder if she actually sees the futility in the whole enmity thing but will fight on to protect her people against horde aggression if they act against her.. but she unlike Vereesa won't go charging in to pick a fight with them.

[DemonHunter18]

I doubt Illidan will become a champion of light with halo above his head nor will he be purified from Fel. Blizzard is not THAT stupid.

[Rhlor]

I doubt Illidan will become a champion of light with halo above his head nor will he be purified from Fel. Blizzard is not THAT stupid.

But the novel

[Mehrunes]

I guess part of my point went over your head? These two magic addicted Elven factions admiring each other didn't give up magic like the Night Elves and look at them now...the Blood Elves had to go limping to the Horde...the Nightborne need everyone because their leaders are selling their own race out for Fel power, just like Kael'thas.

I'm not saying the Night Elves are perfect...but two races that nearly imploded themselves because of magical addictions and greed for power circle jerking each other in admiration really isn't very impressive.

I'm sorry, I guess I focused on your double standards a bit too much. But I did actually cover the part about limping anyway. So, again: Night Elves needed help in WotA, Third War, Alliance-Horde War and to some extent, everything related to Cenarion Circle since it's dominated by Night Elves and has intertwining elements with Night Elf government. And because of the above, joined the Alliance.

Yeah...and what if they practiced magic still? Who is to say another Highborne like wouldn't rise again...another font of power created...another well...who knows is Azeroth could have survived that?

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Nordrassil The Night Elf responsible for it wasn't even a Highborne.

If anything this is just another pot calling the kettle black argument...all 3 fucked up...all 3 aren't able to go it alone...but the *primitive* ones who gave up magic seem to be doing as well or better without the crutch of magic as these 2 circle jerking each other.

And them doing as well (arguable) or better (even more arguable) doesn't negate the fact their weaponry is primitive compared to other Elves. Which most likely is why most (if not all) purely Blood Elf vs Night Elf skirmishes end in favor of Blood Elves.

You know what...it is Nature that will save the Nightborne from their addiction...it's the Light that is saving the Blood Elves...not the Arcane which these two are fawning over and think is *superior*

Actually mix of Nature and Arcane for Nightborne and mix of Light and Arcane for Blood Elves. Neither of them rejected the Arcane. Blood Elves would be OK just with Sunwell being reignited anyway. And addiction is inconsequential to military strength, which was the point. In regards to which Arcane is indeed superior compared to lack of Arcane.

[Magnagarde]

It is worth remembering that the blood elves (highborne) fought alongside the kaldorei resistance in the war of the ancients

You can't really compare Dath'remar to the blood elves nor attribute his deeds to them because Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf to begin with nor has he done anything of the sorts they have. Giving blood elves credits over what Dath'remar did isn't on target at all.

If you meant the high elves prior to them becoming blood elves, then I understand what you're hinting at. Seems like the Tyrande from Warcraft 3 had no problem with Kael'thas and his men, although I completely understand why she'd have a problem with how his people changed afterwards. For some reason, she had no problem with the arcane-reliant high elves at that time, whereas she has a problem with them now, which doesn't make much sense at all.

Kael'thas was a character killed off too early and it surely had much more to offer.

[Rhlor]

You can't really compare Dath'remar to the blood elves nor attribute his deeds to them because Dath'remar wasn't a blood elf to begin with nor has he done anything of the sorts they have. Giving blood elves credits over what Dath'remar did isn't on target at all.

If you meant the high elves prior to them becoming blood elves, then I understand what you're hinting at. Seems like the Tyrande from Warcraft 3 had no problem with Kael'thas and his men, although I completely understand why she'd have a problem with how his people changed afterwards. For some reason, she had no problem with the arcane-reliant high elves at that time, whereas she has a problem with them now, which doesn't make much sense at all.

Kael'thas was a character killed off too early and it surely had much more to offer.

dathremar and his highborne=blood/high elves

[Koryn123]

Depending on which account is canon, Dath'remar's band changing into high elves when they were in Lordaeron away from the Well of Eternity/Nordrassil, or the immediate transformation depicted in the full-color 8-page prequel comic in the Sunwell Trilogy, Dath'remar could have been a high elf when he made it.

The comic shows him and a few of his companions as purple while holding a vial about to create the Sunwell, but other accounts talk about them losing their violet hue and shrinking in height around when they were in Tirisfal Glades, so I dunno what that's about.

[Rhlor]

Depending on which account is canon, Dath'remar's band changing into high elves when they were in Lordaeron away from the Well of Eternity/Nordrassil, or the immediate transformation depicted in the full-color 8-page prequel comic in the Sunwell Trilogy, Dath'remar could have been a high elf when he made it.

The comic shows him and a few of his companions as purple while holding a vial about to create the Sunwell, but other accounts talk about them losing their violet hue and shrinking in height around when they were in Tirisfal Glades, so I dunno what that's about.

comics are canon according devs

[Koryn123]

comics are canon according devs

I know they said comics are canon (except the Med'an parts recently, thank Metzen), but I think even in Chronicles they kept the old description of the Highborne shrinking in height and losing their violet skin when they got to Lordaeron, apparently too far away from Mt. Hyjal to get the blessing from Nordrassil, or maybe purposely rejecting Elune to embrace the day and the sun and all that when they got there was what did it.

Did they say specifically that the 8-page prequel comic depiction of the Highborne changing to High Elves because the energies of the Sunwell immediately transformed them was the canon one?

I don't have Chronicle, but I'm pretty sure it sticks with what you can read in in-game books lying around in places like Scarlet Monastery Library.

[Magnagarde]

dathremar and his highborne=blood/high elves

Dath'remar =/= blood elf/elves

He died long before the blood elves happened to be.

PS Mixed him up with Anasterian for a brief moment lol

[Friendlyimmolation]

Dath'remar =/= blood elf/elves

He fell to Arthas before the blood elves happened to be.

Dathremar was already dead. You are thinking of Anastarian.

[Mehrunes]

Holy mother of an assumption.

[Zandalariprelate]

This thread is still going? whoa

[Dastreus]

It should be noted that the reason the blood elves can so easily figure out Shal'dorei magic and constructs is because the Blood Elves have had years to learn from a wider arrangement of knowledge, experiences, and mistakes. Whereas the Shal'dorei have been in a bubble for 10k years.

As others stated, the Night Elves are stretched thin, sending what they can to Suramar and protecting their lands with the rest of their forces. Further, where the Night Elves lack in arcane prowess, they make up for in tactics and ranged combat, not counting their druids.
However, I do wish Tyrande wasn't so blasé about being there.

[Duravian]

Was wondering the same thing. Lor'themar missing in action again.

He's at home, "ruling" (standing in the main chamber of the Sunfury Spire talking shit with the guys)

[Rhlor]

Dath'remar =/= blood elf/elves

He fell to Arthas before the blood elves happened to be.

The elves of blood are the high elves only changed the name.

The highborne who fought in the war of the ancients side of the kaldorei resistance against the legion became high elves.

night elf dathremar

dathremar and highborne creating Sunwell

high/blood elf dathremar and the high/blood elves


The high/blood elves fought alongside the kaldorei resistance they were heroes of the war

[Magnagarde]

The elves of blood are the high elves only changed the name.

The highborne who fought in the war of the ancients side of the kaldorei resistance against the legion became high elves.

night elf dathremar

dathremar and highborne creating Sunwell

high/blood elf dathremar and the high/blood elves


The high/blood elves fought alongside the kaldorei resistance they were heroes of the war

Once again, Dath'remar was not a blood elf. The pictures you provided are totally unrelated because I am not arguing wether he was a night elf once upon a time nor the origin of the Sunwell. What I am trying to make clear to you is that Dath'remar was not a blood elf.

The blood elves did not fight alongside the Kaldorei resistance; high elves fought alongside them and only a fraction of them are still possibly alive to identify themselves as blood elves nowadays.

high/blood elf dathremar and the high/blood elves

There is no "blood elf" Dath'remar because blood elves happened to be after Dath'remar was dead for a long time.

Dath'remar was dead by the time blood elves were created, which is why he could not have been one.

[Rhlor]

Once again, Dath'remar was not a blood elf. The pictures you provided are totally unrelated because I am not arguing wether he was a night elf once upon a time nor the origin of the Sunwell. What I am trying to make clear to you is that Dath'remar was not a blood elf.

The blood elves did not fight alongside the Kaldorei resistance; high elves fought alongside them and only a fraction of them are still possibly alive to identify themselves as blood elves nowadays.





There is no "blood elf" Dath'remar because blood elves happened to be after Dath'remar died.

Dath'remar was dead by the time blood elves were created, which is why he could not have been one.

The blood elves are the high elves just changing the name. The blood elves are very proud of their highborne heritage