Burn Outs

[Naytham]

WoD - "OMFG blizz this game is dead, im just logging in for raid nights because there is nothing else to work towards, theres nothing to outside of raiding"

Legion - "OMFG blizz this game is ruined, i just wanna log for raid nights, this game has to much stuff to do, i dont have time for it, please fix ur game"

People are never happy

MoP - "OMFG blizz I have nothing to say because this game is still good and the classes aren't completely destroyed"

[Dangg]

WoD - "OMFG blizz this game is dead, im just logging in for raid nights because there is nothing else to work towards, theres nothing to outside of raiding"

Legion - "OMFG blizz this game is ruined, i just wanna log for raid nights, this game has to much stuff to do, i dont have time for it, please fix ur game"

People are never happy

I've seen this example a few times. Not saying that I agree, but have you considered that it's possible to take it too far in either direction?

[saeros]

WoD - "OMFG blizz this game is dead, im just logging in for raid nights because there is nothing else to work towards, theres nothing to outside of raiding"

Legion - "OMFG blizz this game is ruined, i just wanna log for raid nights, this game has to much stuff to do, i dont have time for it, please fix ur game"

People are never happy

or maybe they are different people.
you know, millions of players, maybe a few of them have different opinions

[ComputerNerd]

Without a cap that expectation is still there, it just takes the form of doing as much as is humanly possible.

And can you tell me what that is ?
It is at that point something entirely artificial and dictated by the player doing it.
They set their own cap at that point, and they are the only person responsible for setting that too high.

[Echo of Soul]

And can you tell me what that is ?
It is at that point something entirely artificial and dictated by the player doing it.
They set their own cap at that point, and they are the only person responsible for setting that too high.

It's most often dictated by your guild, often indirectly by making you fall behind if you don't do as much content as everyone else. If you look at the world first raiders that expectation might very well be ~100 mythic+ dungeons weekly. As I said, if there's no cap and no lockouts you are expected to run as much as you possibly can.

[Coldkil]

Sorry but this isn't accurate.
You can't mess up 3-4 button rotations no matter how hard you intentionally try to.

This game is 100% stats/gear based and 0% player skill.

May be feeding the troll but.....no. It's not. Otherwise everyone would be top 95% on parses, if not 100%.

[Marrilaife]

MoP - "OMFG blizz I have nothing to say because this game is still good and the classes aren't completely destroyed"

MOP was "OMFG kung fu pandas" so generally an aesthetic complaint.

Also the biggest issue was justice / valor vendor being gated behind rep from dailies. People who did only dailies for rep couldn't buy shit because they didn't have enough valor unless they did other content. People who raided or spammed dungeons couldn't buy shit, because they didn't have the rep. They backed off a bit on that in a patch (the justice items no longer requiring a rep), but the damage at the start was done.

Also gating 2 reps behind golden lotus, so people couldn't pick and choose to do the other 2 first if they wanted for example that lucrative enchanting pattern.

Oh, and the fact legendary questline required winning 2 battlegrounds and on some battlegroups that was really bad for specific faction. But that's generally a minor issue.

[Akka]

I'd beg to differ. Compare it to any other form of entertainment. Sure, you can still draw interest from a book series or movie series that is continued for 10+ years, but how often does that really happen? The human brain can only derive the same level of pleasure from the same thing, slightly changed each time, done over and over (with some obvious real life exceptions).

Must be why so many people keep the same hobbies (chess, football, painting, whatever) throught their whole life.

[ehxy]

WoD - "OMFG blizz this game is dead, im just logging in for raid nights because there is nothing else to work towards, theres nothing to outside of raiding"

Legion - "OMFG blizz this game is ruined, i just wanna log for raid nights, this game has to much stuff to do, i dont have time for it, please fix ur game"

People are never happy

Not accurate at all.

In diablo 3 there is a point you hit where you're doing rift runs over and over and over for a legendary drop but not just any legendary drop it has to be ancient and not just ancient it has to roll at least high damage, % damage while the extra stat is the rollable and you throw in a ram's gift to socket it. We're at that point. We're running rifts, doing repetitive tasks over and over and over for that rare drop that there isn't a high chance you'll get the one you want to begin with.

Very much like diablo 3, you just get plain bored.

And then though I haven't payed for sub with real money since launch it's still the equivalent of $20 a month CAD. At least in diablo you're not paying a sub else it'd be as boring as this and really make one question why they continue to subject themselves to sisyphus torture.

And alts, christ is rolling alts a complete pain in the ass(I've got 9 110's) I've completely giving up doing wq's on all of them and last week world bosses too, it is simply far too much to bother.

[ComputerNerd]

It's most often dictated by your guild, often indirectly by making you fall behind if you don't do as much content as everyone else. If you look at the world first raiders that expectation might very well be ~100 mythic+ dungeons weekly. As I said, if there's no cap and no lockouts you are expected to run as much as you possibly can.

And who defines what "you" can do - YOU.
A hard cap only gives that a distinct number.
The rest is dictated by the player.

[Echo of Soul]

And who defines what "you" can do - YOU.
A hard cap only gives that a distinct number.
The rest is dictated by the player.

It doesn't really work like that when you're part of a team but as a solo player sure I absolutely agree.

[ShiyoKozuki]

May be feeding the troll but.....no. It's not. Otherwise everyone would be top 95% on parses, if not 100%.

Disagreeing/arguing = trolling ?
How are you a moderator when you talk to people like this? Extremely disrespectful, something I'd never expect from a moderator.

This is the most gear/stat based the game has ever been, there's so little ways to stand out and push yourself and be better than people besides gear. Combine this with the fact that Blizzard has intentionally created huge gear checks/gear walls/dps checks on their bosses lately and you get a 100% gear/stat based game.
THAT is why every hardcore guild/player has spammed so much they burned themself out, because the only way to get better is to get better gear, and the only way to get better gear is to spam boring content until your eyes bleed.

You aren't going to "play better" and kill a boss in a top tier mythic guild after wiping to it for 30+ attempts, you're simply going to go get better gear to bypass the BS gear checks Blizzard has put into everything now.

[Akka]

If it were about the journey we wouldn't have multiple difficulties and randomized loot. All forms of progression would be much more linear. The journey aspect of the game died some time during wrath of the lich king.

This is spot on.

[Trapped]

Well calling people leeches is a reason why your post looked like an attack or rather, condemnation towards the decision of those people to chill and play overwatch etc. on non-raid days.

I find it pretty normal that 1) guilds that raids only 6 hours / week will attract people who don't play wow that much and like it to stay that way 2) people take extra time off at the launch of expansion to lvl up and prepare for raids but that time off is a once per 2 years event not a schedule they want to upkeep all the time.

Also you illustrate the clash between group that believes you should spend all your free time in wow (it precedes AP farm era, all the guilds saying "must be active player" and "no raid loggers") and group that logs to wow as to one of the many games and hobbies they enjoy. This can lead to the second group quitting wow if they find in wow the game design or the social pressure no longer allows them to treat wow as the one of many, but it must be the one and only. People who are "raid loggers" are already more dedicated than those who announce "no schedules, freedom above everything" and avoid guilds and timetable raiding, only stick to pugs and lfr.

Well in your specific case the problem lies in question: does your guild have specific set goals? Are they hardcore or casual? If there's half the guild who wants to hardcore farm AP and push progression and another half that wants to take it casually and not be too fussed, that creates a rift and well I hope it doesn't happen to you, but I saw it happen in the past to some guilds that either drama ensues, or the "hardcore" part just leaves to make their own guild or simply join a more hardcore oriented one.

The community sends contradictory messages, one is "pace yourself, take it easy" and another is "you lag behind others, step it up". And it's very hard to find a guild where there's agreement which avenue to take, except the super hardcore guild where it's obvious it's gonna go the hardcore route.

And it's not exactly easy to do what the other guy said "just find a guild where there's no internal pressure and everyone is friends". Guilds don't have such things written on their resume. Every guild from world top 100 to "somewhere midway hc" labels themselves as "semi-hardcore" this doesn't mean anything. Every guild says "we're looking for exceptional, skilled, dedicated players", again doesn't mean anything any more. Nearly every guild is also looking for people "who have sense of humour and can take a joke but are serious during progression". Every time I had to look for a guild in the past all their websites and wowprogress descriptions looked like copy-pasta from each other.

We call ourselves "semi-hardcore", we don't do Mythic, but have plenty of min/maxers and we conduct ourselves in a manner that mirrors that of a Mythic quality guild. We care about enchants, gems, and make the most out of consumables. The only reason we don't do Mythic is because we don't like the large group size. Most of the raiders we had in WoD played all the time, didn't do the "raid-logging" or playing other games on non-raid nights. In WoD, you could kinda get away with raid-logging because there wasn't anything you're really missing out on, progression-wise, on non-raid nights. Most of your gear and player power came from raid drops. Legion is different, however. More than ever, gear and player power come from outside of raids, and I already see people making posts to get rid of Mythic+ or to put a daily/weekly cap on them. It's actually a valid argument, people who play for 10 hours a day are at a huge advantage to people that play for 1-2 hours a day. When the 1-2 hour players see how far behind they can get from not spamming Mythic+ or whatever, it can certainly lead to frustration, and most definitely, leaving the game.

And btw, I only said raid-loggers are being leeches because if you're only putting in your 6-8 hours a week for raids and you're expecting loot from the people who've put in many more hours than you to make those raids easier, you are kind of being a leech. Maybe leech is a little harsh or not the right wording, but you get my point. You can't be a raid-logger and be competitive in the current state of Legion. My opinion of course.

[Deleted]

It is Diablo 3 syndrom. Majority of players hit spot where getting new upgrade is too rng heavy and not worth their time and money anymore. Content progression is pretty much done. You just join LFR or any other easy difficulty and you finish content there and all you have left to do is repeating same content over and over in hope to get that dream upgrade with 0,00001% dtop chance. Pretty boring progression if you ask me. Thats why TBC had such great progression path. You never do same raids over and over. You killed boss and move on on new one. You farm bit older ones for gear and went into new raid new boss you were never stuck with difficulty sliders and reapeating same content over and over.

[Osmeric]

Thats why TBC had such great progression path. You never do same raids over and over. You killed boss and move on on new one. You farm bit older ones for gear and went into new raid new boss you were never stuck with difficulty sliders and reapeating same content over and over.

Where the "you" there refers to the very small fraction of players who actually progressed like that.

[pansertjald]

May be feeding the troll but.....no. It's not. Otherwise everyone would be top 95% on parses, if not 100%.

Are you for real????

You are a moderator and you are calling another user for a troll????????

[ShiyoKozuki]

If it were about the journey we wouldn't have multiple difficulties and randomized loot. All forms of progression would be much more linear. The journey aspect of the game died some time during wrath of the lich king.

Yep, this is when I started to hate WOW too. Hilariously, this is when Ghostcrawler took over WOW.
Thanks Ghostcrawler, again.

[Marrilaife]

We call ourselves "semi-hardcore", we don't do Mythic, but have plenty of min/maxers and we conduct ourselves in a manner that mirrors that of a Mythic quality guild. We care about enchants, gems, and make the most out of consumables. The only reason we don't do Mythic is because we don't like the large group size. Most of the raiders we had in WoD played all the time, didn't do the "raid-logging" or playing other games on non-raid nights. In WoD, you could kinda get away with raid-logging because there wasn't anything you're really missing out on, progression-wise, on non-raid nights. Most of your gear and player power came from raid drops. Legion is different, however. More than ever, gear and player power come from outside of raids, and I already see people making posts to get rid of Mythic+ or to put a daily/weekly cap on them. It's actually a valid argument, people who play for 10 hours a day are at a huge advantage to people that play for 1-2 hours a day. When the 1-2 hour players see how far behind they can get from not spamming Mythic+ or whatever, it can certainly lead to frustration, and most definitely, leaving the game.

And btw, I only said raid-loggers are being leeches because if you're only putting in your 6-8 hours a week for raids and you're expecting loot from the people who've put in many more hours than you to make those raids easier, you are kind of being a leech. Maybe leech is a little harsh or not the right wording, but you get my point. You can't be a raid-logger and be competitive in the current state of Legion. My opinion of course.

Well I don't know what exactly your "raid loggers" expected from the guild and how were the guild goals stated to them, but a guild that doesn't do mythic raiding and raids only 6 hours a week is bound to attract the more casual playerbase.

If the people who do a lot of m+ feel that 1) it gives better gear than raids 2) they have to carry others in the raid, "boost them" 3) they don't want to raid mythic because they want to keep it small, there is always the option to resign from raiding and convert the guild to a m+ only guild. Of course that would push away those who were logging only for raids, but if the m+ group resents them, that creates bad atmosphere. Even if unspoken openly.

Personally I think a heroic only guild doesn't need to farm m+ like crazy. That's maybe the place where we disagree. I have an alt with 860-something ilvl and 3 golden traits in artifact mostly from emmissary caches, world bosses, weekly events like timewalking and so on. That should be enough to raid heroic and is achievable with little effort. Actually a casual player that clears normal / hc raid every week would gather plenty of AP just from that. And how much gear do you even need to beat a raid that drops 865-870 baseline? Heroic TOV was nerfed last Thursday exactly for the reason heroic isn't aimed at hardcore audience. That was a second wave of nerfs after first wave in the initial week (after 1-2 days of the instance being live). I'm not surprised, it shouldn't require either the skill or the gear of a M EN farming guild to beat it. High m+ dungeons are more challenging than heroic raids.

[Deleted]

And who defines what "you" can do - YOU.
A hard cap only gives that a distinct number.
The rest is dictated by the player.

Are you suggesting then that game design has nothing to do with it?