FACT CHALLENGE: Is the United States of America a Constitutional Republic orDemocracy

[Elegiac]

It's a plutocracy masquerading as a constitutional republic.

[zoefschildpad]

Why would you care about labels? The important thing is how it works (or doesn't work).

[Deleted]

It is neither.
It is a constitutional federation.

[Slant]

It's a Federal Republic I don't get why that is hard to get.

Those terms do not exclude each other, they supplement each other. Federal means the architecture of the nation's entities (state vs. federal), republic means that the power to enable Government lies in the hand of the people, democracy simply means how the people enable the Government.

Now, take Germany, we're a federal republic and democratic. Nobody in their right mind would ever deny that. So this is an example on how this does exist just fine. The UK? Not a federal republic, they are a parliamentary constitutional monarchy. The Queen is the one technically "ordering" the PM to form a Government. This is just a technicality, since the elections do the deciding on who gets to become PM, but as long as everyone agrees that the Queen is the source of that order, it's never going to be a republic.

The US? Very much a federal nation. 50 states, ffs. It's a republic, because the power comes from the people. And since you do actually have an election system that somehow tries to (badly) represent the majority of the nation, it is very much democratic. It's a really fucked up bad kind of democracy, but it's democratic.

Key features of democracy:

http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/e...s0.658703.html

• Democracy is government in which power and civic responsibility are exercised by all adult citizens, directly, or through their freely elected representatives.

• Democracy rests upon the principles of majority rule and individual rights. Democracies guard against all-powerful central governments and decentralize government to regional and local levels, understanding that all levels of government must be as accessible and responsive to the people as possible.

• Democracies understand that one of their prime functions is to protect such basic human rights as freedom of speech and religion; the right to equal protection under law; and the opportunity to organize and participate fully in the political, economic, and cultural life of society.

• Democracies conduct regular free and fair elections open to citizens of voting age.

• Citizens in a democracy have not only rights, but also the responsibility to participate in the political system that, in turn, protects their rights and freedoms.

• Democratic societies are committed to the values of tolerance, cooperation, and compromise. In the words of Mahatma Gandhi, "Intolerance is itself a form of violence and an obstacle to the growth of a true democratic spirit."

Two Forms of Democracy

1. Through their freely elected representatives. Check.
2. Prinicple of majority rule and individual rights. Check.
3. Protecting basic human rights, equal treatment before the law, participation in society for everyone. Check, albeit just barely :P.
4. Regular and free elections to citizens of voting age (whatever that may be). Check.
5. Committance to tolerance, cooperation, compromise. Check. The question is... for how long? Because Trump is destroying a lot of this.

So, despite all the people claiming the US is not a democracy, it is. Very much so.

So why do people claim the US is not a democracy? Because of their love for drama and conspiracies. That's it. This is the internet, the whole idea that the US is undemocratic is a child of the internet age, where every idiocy is sold as truth on the internet and there are idiots who will believe everything! Do not pay attention to those guys. They just live a very boring life and would love to have some drama that they can witness. The people that claim the US is not a democracy? They're the same that regularily talk and wish for WW3, war against X, civil war in the US, black uprisings or alternatively white uprisings... they do not even have a political affiliation, they'll just change their stance to what is the most provocative and dramatic. If a black uprising gets their shaft hard, they'll argue for it. Or against it the next second if that makes them jizz.

Seriously, no respect for the people that twist and turn facts just to satisfy their need for drama.

[NineSpine]

Those terms do not exclude each other, they supplement each other. Federal means the architecture of the nation's entities (state vs. federal), republic means that the power to enable Government lies in the hand of the people, democracy simply means how the people enable the Government.

Now, take Germany, we're a federal republic and democratic. Nobody in their right mind would ever deny that. So this is an example on how this does exist just fine. The UK? Not a federal republic, they are a parliamentary constitutional monarchy. The Queen is the one technically "ordering" the PM to form a Government. This is just a technicality, since the elections do the deciding on who gets to become PM, but as long as everyone agrees that the Queen is the source of that order, it's never going to be a republic.

The US? Very much a federal nation. 50 states, ffs. It's a republic, because the power comes from the people. And since you do actually have an election system that somehow tries to (badly) represent the majority of the nation, it is very much democratic. It's a really fucked up bad kind of democracy, but it's democratic.

Key features of democracy:

http://iipdigital.usembassy.gov/st/e...s0.658703.html



1. Through their freely elected representatives. Check.
2. Prinicple of majority rule and individual rights. Check.
3. Protecting basic human rights, equal treatment before the law, participation in society for everyone. Check, albeit just barely :P.
4. Regular and free elections to citizens of voting age (whatever that may be). Check.
5. Committance to tolerance, cooperation, compromise. Check. The question is... for how long? Because Trump is destroying a lot of this.

So, despite all the people claiming the US is not a democracy, it is. Very much so.

So why do people claim the US is not a democracy? Because of their love for drama and conspiracies. That's it. This is the internet, the whole idea that the US is undemocratic is a child of the internet age, where every idiocy is sold as truth on the internet and there are idiots who will believe everything! Do not pay attention to those guys. They just live a very boring life and would love to have some drama that they can witness. The people that claim the US is not a democracy? They're the same that regularily talk and wish for WW3, war against X, civil war in the US, black uprisings or alternatively white uprisings... they do not even have a political affiliation, they'll just change their stance to what is the most provocative and dramatic. If a black uprising gets their shaft hard, they'll argue for it. Or against it the next second if that makes them jizz.

Seriously, no respect for the people that twist and turn facts just to satisfy their need for drama.

That's not why people try to deny that the U.S. is a democracy. They do it because they think it proves some kind of point about how the Democrats and wrong and the Republicans are right.

[Slant]

That's not why people try to deny that the U.S. is a democracy. They do it because they think it proves some kind of point about how the Democrats and wrong and the Republicans are right.

That's the most stupid argument I've heard in a long time. Do people actually do this? Just because one party is called "democrats"? Don't they realise that the Republicans are just as much democrats as the Democrats are?

It's like saying Tories are lazy, cos Labour is the only party doing the labour... *ba-dum-tch!*

God, the pun is so bad, I should be whipped...

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It's a plutocracy masquerading as a constitutional republic.

This piece seems to explore your idea:

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journ...D4893B382B992B

From the Conclusions...

What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.

A possible objection to populistic democracy is that average citizens are inattentive to politics and ignorant about public policy; why should we worry if their poorly-informed preferences do not influence policy making? Perhaps economic elites and interest-group leaders enjoy greater policy expertise than the average citizen does. Perhaps they know better which policies will benefit everyone, and perhaps they seek the common good, rather than selfish ends, when deciding which policies to support.

But we tend to doubt it. We believe instead that—collectively—ordinary citizens generally know their own values and interests pretty well, and that their expressed policy preferences are worthy of respect. 50 Moreover, we are not so sure about the informational advantages of elites. Yes, detailed policy knowledge tends to rise with income and status. Surely wealthy Americans and corporate executives tend to know a lot about tax and regulatory policies that directly affect them. But how much do they know about the human impact of Social Security, Medicare, food stamps, or unemployment insurance, none of which is likely to be crucial to their own well-being? Most important, we see no reason to think that informational expertise is always accompanied by an inclination to transcend one's own interests or a determination to work for the common good.

Oh right, Cambridge is not a valid source, because it doesn't have .edu or .gov as suffix. :P

[Derpleton]

We're a Federal Republic, a federation of states forming a Republican Government. That is why the state electors, not the popular vote elects our leader on a federal level.

[Snowfunk]

Is the Orange.

A. Round in shape

or

B. Orange in color

You can apparently only pick one answer.
The correct answer will be given in my next post.

[Slant]

We're a Federal Republic, a federation of states forming a Republican Government. That is why the state electors, not the popular vote elects our leader on a federal level.

No, you're an indirect democracy, that's why state electors elect the leader on a federal level after they are elected themselves in a populistic election.

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Is the Orange.

A. Round in shape

or

B. Orange in color

You can apparently only pick one answer.
The correct answer will be given in my next post.

It's C. A citrus fruit. :P

[Derpleton]

No, you're an indirect democracy, that's why state electors elect the leader on a federal level after they are elected themselves in a populistic election.

We're technically both a Federal Republic and an Indirect Democracy though, the process via which the electors of the President is chosen is Indirect Democracy but the actual vote by the electors for the president makes us a Federal Republic, since representatives of the states are choosing our leader.

Does the term Indirect Democratic Constitutional Federal Republic cover it?

[Slant]

We're technically both a Federal Republic and an Indirect Democracy though, the process via which the electors of the President is chosen is Indirect Democracy but the actual vote by the electors for the president makes us a Federal Republic, since representatives of the states are choosing our leader.

No, it doesn't. A federal republic is what you are. Democracy is what you do. You said it right in your first sentence, you are both a federal republic and an indirect democracy. Those terms do not exclude each other. You use the method of indirect democracy to legitimise the leadership of your federal republic. You aren't actually disagreeing with me.

I think the biggest problem you have is that you think the way you are electing the president is stupid. And it is. But even if it's inefficient and probably unfair to parts of the population, it's a sort of democracy. Look at the UK again, they're a democracy, too. But a monarchy at the same time. Fucked up, isn't it?

Every country is different, just because the US has its own funky flavour of democracy doesn't make it not a democracy.

[Dryade]

The USA is a Federal Republic, not a democracy.

[Slant]

The USA is a Federal Republic, not a democracy.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post43634064

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post43634337

[nextormento]

Is there any federal requirement for representatives be elected democratically?
for instance: could a state decide to not celebrate elections to the Electoral College, and just present them through other means?.

[Dryade]

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post43634064

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post43634337

Irrelevant. The OP asked if the USA is a Republic or a Democracy. The only correct answer is Federal Republic.

[Annoying]

Is the Orange.

A. Round in shape

or

B. Orange in color

You can apparently only pick one answer.
The correct answer will be given in my next post.

Fun fact, the color was named after the fruit. Also, OR is inclusive. If you had said A XOR B, then yeah, you could only choose one.

[rogueMatthias]

It's a plutocracy masquerading as a constitutional republic.

This 100%.

[Tyrianth]

Constitutional Republic - A nation where the head of state is a president, and where governmental powers and limitations are laid in a constitution.
Democracy - A nation where citizens take an active role in the governing of their country. Either directly or through elected representatives.


The US is both of those. Just as Canada is a Constitutional Monarchy as well as a democracy.

[Slant]

Irrelevant. The OP asked if the USA is a Republic or a Democracy. The only correct answer is Federal Republic.

Read what I linked, I do not like to repeat myself when I explained and refuted your stance in the post directly prior to yours. What is irrelevant is what you think it is.

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Constitutional Republic - A nation where the head of state is a president, and where governmental powers and limitations are laid in a constitution.
Democracy - A nation where citizens take an active role in the governing of their country. Either directly or through elected representatives.


The US is both of those. Just as Canada is a Constitutional Monarchy as well as a democracy.

It's just a border on the map, but that US/Canadian border somehow seems to do something to mental capacity... it's astonishing really, that a Canadian has to explain to an American how the US works.

Infracted

[Darsithis]

We're not a direct democracy; we elect representatives who then vote on our behalf. That doesn't change that it is still a democratic government.