State of hunters - Q&A w/ Ion

[Deleted]

We are bottom of the pack on dps/dmg done, except a few fights where we can cheese into middle of the pack.
Cheese i mean aoe adds ..
Illy bloobs cheese
Dragons adds cheese
Elerethe spider cheese
Xavius tentacle cheese

If all AoE is cheese, than all AoE speccs can only cheese. I agree with the Xavius point to an extent, but bringing up Dragons of all things... Not killing all the adds in time is the problem on that fight and what ranged are supposed to do. Same thing goes with spiders on Elerethe, those things have to die and quick, so why would dps on them be considered cheese by anyone in any situation? Not saying anything to Illgynoth, since rankings on that fight are beyond meaningless no matter which way you look at it.

Also: MM damage on Cenarius might be low, but they still get brought. Why? Because they bring good wisp damage, which is important, and they can clear brambles. So no, hunters aren't bad on that fight, they just do a job that doesn't look that great on the meters.

[ydraw]

Yes, Yes and No. If you watch past normal and heroic raiding, then you are looking at a very small procent of the players who have play hunters. To take the point of Blizzard directly, they don't balance the game for high end mythic raiding and they have said that multiple times. Mythic will never be balance so don't expect it. Hunter works very well in heroic and normal raiding

No, it doesn't.

Hunters are the lowest ST class at every level of raiding. Stop making shit up.

[Flurryfang]

No, it doesn't.

Hunters are the lowest ST class at every level of raiding. Stop making shit up.

Yeah, now you are making shit up.

But as the guy said before, unless i am insanely skilled, world first mythic raider, i have nothing to say in here. So i will be off. Good luck with your campaign for more ST dps for MM hunters. You won't have my voice on your side with this, especially when you keep only using Mythic data.

[pupu]

It's not rly AOE either .. it's more like cleave .. or what casters would call it multi dotting
AOE in the pure sense it's only Illy
Nobody said we should not do it, or that it's not our job .. i was just saying what it is
Cenarius is mostly bramble clear .. that's our ticket in .. more classes who can do good whisp dmg

Sry to contradict you .. but normal or heroic is not good either
If you take same ilvl and skill, hunters will still be bottom no matter what difficulty (do not compare good geared hunter with bad gear other classes)
If you are so all knowing Flurry, why don't you give an example on where hunters are godlike .. would love to see that
You comment on asking for a tank/healing spec shows how ignorant/troll you are
All this discussion is based on hunter as a pure dps class with 3 specs of dps ..
Why should we be lower than a boomkin or feral who is tank/heal/dps class for example
By definition a pure dps class is better on what it does

Lastly .. the natural calling/role of a hunter, specially a MM one is not aoe .. marksman is a sharpshooter fantasy .. you should check out what it means in a dictionary
Even so .. considering our current aoe niche specialist spot .. we are about to loose that aswell in 7.1.5 ..
What is left of us then ? we cannot fit any role properly

[Pijips]

Yeah, try using a real overview of dmg instead of only cenarius. MM is pretty high on the list when it comes to all fights overall.

Also, somebody have to be worst at single target, yet in mythic+ dungeons, i see high dmg output from MM hunters there in general. Also overall, i see many hunters do extremly well in both normal and heroic raiding. Don't only use mythic raiding as a mark for a class being good or bad.


Edit: Also, if you look at lower item lvls then highest possible, you will see that not even survival is in the lowest 3. Ion has talked about this before. If you just look at logs overall, you might get a distorted view of how things really are.

Tbh, hunters are pretty good at doing world quests too, and soloing old raids. We also have an entire type of weaponry to ourselves! Not to mention we are among a very small pool of classes that can survive a wipe. It's true that mythic raiding shouldn't be used as a mark for a class being good or bad, and with this in mind it's clear hunters need some serious nerfs overall.

[Deleted]

Yes, Yes and No. If you watch past normal and heroic raiding, then you are looking at a very small procent of the players who have play hunters. To take the point of Blizzard directly, they don't balance the game for high end mythic raiding and they have said that multiple times. Mythic will never be balance so don't expect it. Hunter works very well in heroic and normal raiding, yet you have the audasity to call it broken just because it is not top 5 dps on all fights in mythic. You seem to be crying about MM being the only "viable" spec in mythic, yet that is how it has been for many classes through time. As a rogue main, i can tell you how much our class have been about 1 spec at the time since MoP. You are not unique in the situation to have a dominant spec, so don't go all "Blizzard hates/ignores/treats us special bad" on me, because you are in the same situation as everybody else.

Alot of people in here seems to speak from a very high point of view, where they expect their class/spec to be atleast top 5/10 dps on every single boss, but Blizzard have already said, that they want classes/specs to have clear places pros and cons. With hunters it seems like the pro is on multi/aoe dps and the con is single target. So plz accept, that while you are bad on some fights, you also have the fights where you are godlike on. Everytime where you put up some numbers from Guarm or Ursoc, i will just counter it with numbers from Illgynoth, Helya or Dragons.

And also, i have nothing to say about 7.1.5 changes. Ion's comment was only about live and i will therefore only talk about live stats.

- - - Updated - - -



Well then bring this up with Blizzard. Say that you want a tank or healing spec to go to, since your dps is "bad". Maybe they will make survival a tank That should solve your problem

no offense but heroic and normal means nothing.

Most players who only raid normal/heroic (in guild groups) are still trying to figure out how to deal dps.
So if you happen to be a good player within a mediocre playing field then you are obviously gonna perfomr better than others.

In my opinion mythic logs are the only numbers which are telling the truth. There dps gets utilized and cheesing rarely happens (unless players are going for rankings) Mythic raiders usually put in much more effort into optimizing their dps.
Due to that it shows how the classes are doing.

Heroic/normal raiding is filled with dps cheesing and bad logs. (people ignore mechanics to deal more dps and look good on the dps meters)

I dont expect to be top5 in the dps meters(since class stacking can happen) but I expect my class to be a top 5 class at every single fight. Hunters' only option is to deal dps. Hunter's have to be good at dealing dps. (ST or MT does not really matter/should be a talent choice - like crows vs barrage)

Look at odyn for example. Even if you are able to cleave trough the whole P1 and for most of the P2 then your damage is still gonna suck compared to most meeles eventho they usually end up wiht having less uptime overall. On odyn we are the 2nd worst dps class. (compared by top ranks on mythic progression - only monks are a bit worse) Then go to guarm. The no.1 ranked hunter managed to deal 515k dps which is compared to other classes the 3rd worst no.1 in dps-rankings. (2nd hunter has below 500k which is only outperforming WW monks)

The only encounter we perform really good is helya. The only reason for that is our cleave. We only aoe-stuff. Our only niche is too aoe more targets than any other class can cleave. Great design blizzard./s (if you consider that we are a pure dps class)

[ydraw]

Yeah, now you are making shit up.

But as the guy said before, unless i am insanely skilled, world first mythic raider, i have nothing to say in here. So i will be off. Good luck with your campaign for more ST dps for MM hunters. You won't have my voice on your side with this, especially when you keep only using Mythic data.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...841&dataset=90 Normal
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...841&dataset=90 Heroic

Hunters just as bad.

[Deleted]

Hunters are fine in 7.1.5

[Agallion]

On a positive note, they said that BM and SV would be adjusted to be competitive.

[Deleted]

On a positive note, they said that BM and SV would be adjusted to be competitive.

inb4 survival hunter best dps specc but still worse than any other meele due to a pure lack of cleave damage and mobility.

[Deleted]

On a positive note, they said that BM and SV would be adjusted to be competitive.

They did? Where? Been looking for something like that, but haven't seen any quotes about BM.

[Aggrophobic]

All 3 hunter specs are quite viable for normal/heroic raiding and mythic+ undtil high tiers. MM and BM are after that quite viable in mythic raiding and high mythic+. Garbage tier is quite wrong, since hunters see quite a good amount of participation in most raiding scenarios, so i think you should word it something else then garbage... Maybe "not optimal" would be better

I do agree, that hunters should have a spec, that is all about single target, which i hope they will do with survival, since its core rotation is focused around a single target ability. I think that the talk about having a single target spec within the hunter class could be something Blizzard would agree on, but that will only happend when people stop drowning the forums with these god awefull excuses of proof. Just because hunters are bad on a couple of fights, does not mean that the class is garbage. Especially when they dominate specific bosses and lower tiered raiding.

When you say "viable", what do you mean by that? I mean, EN is easy enough that you can bring someone that does shit DPS but the specs are still crap compared to many other classes.
BM and survival are the two worst specs for raiding after all and even MM only has uses in very specific situations.

If you remove "Evil tree" and Dragons from there, all 3 hunters specs would be garbage.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/10/#dataset=90

[Riistov]

I think a lot of hunters are more concerned that the class mechanically feels like ass right now, not that our DPS is a huge issue.

Yup, this sums up my feelings right now.

MM and BM feel really empty.

[Agallion]

They did? Where? Been looking for something like that, but haven't seen any quotes about BM.

Its at the 47:35 mark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koeJfQHmDEs

[Msa]

Would you get peace of hearth if they made MM to theoretically do top dps in 99% of all encounters?

I hope not, because if you are struggling pulling good numbers at the state of hunters on live, then you would never be able to bring max out of your character anyway. Cant understand why this forum wants mediocre playstyles to be rewarded with top dps. If you are not raiding cutting edge, then there will ALWAYS be room for good hunters in a raid because a raid instance has different bosses where hunters can shine.

Also, the PTR is no more "clunky" than live, I can say from having spent a lot of time raidtesting. If you manage to get the live MM to feel clunky then you dont understand the rotation in order to keep the flow of casts smooth. Are you clipping vulnerable? Are you properly using WB and Barrage for downtime? Are you using a time-to-kill weak aura so you can perfectly time bullseye, TS and second pot? If you are then I can't belive you would ever write self-victimising "MM is bottom shit tier"-posts like this.

[Alvito]

I think a lot of hunters are more concerned that the class mechanically feels like ass right now, not that our DPS is a huge issue.

My hunter has been my favorite alt for 7 years. I am very unhappy about how both bm and mm play now.

[DeicideUH]

Yup, this sums up my feelings right now.

MM and BM feel really empty.

"New" 7.1.5 MM feels a little better, I think. However, they are not making anything to improve talent selection. Row 100 is somewhat better, but Sidewinders is still the best by far. Row 60 is still quite problematic, with Patient Sniper still being mandatory. Row 15 is also pointless.

[Deleted]

Its at the 47:35 mark


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koeJfQHmDEs

Thanks! Just getting a bit antsy with the lack of changes for BM in the PTR patch notes.

[GoKs]

Thanks! Just getting a bit antsy with the lack of changes for BM in the PTR patch notes.

I feel your pain =(

[Agallion]

Thanks! Just getting a bit antsy with the lack of changes for BM in the PTR patch notes.

Tell me about it, ive been checking pretty much every day.