What would YOU do about Slice n' Dice?

[Sinbad101]

So, They're not changing RtB. But what are they looking at? SnD

I like that the Devs do admit that Outlaw rogues would like another playstyle option. But God Damn man, SnD is Boring as Hell and that's only its MAIN issue. Other problems include:

1. It dumbs down and doesn't add anything to your rotation (tier 100 everybody)
2. It will almost always do less for your damage. (Wouldn’t be an issue if it were fun IMO)
3. IF you take it, you give up MfD <--(See Side Note)

My Potential change to SnD to make it more interesting and thematic:

(Easy way): Now a Passive-
“Finishers increase your Attack Speed by 100% for 10 seconds, and Saber Slash’s additional strike chance will increase by 3% every cast until it procs. Your Melee attacks never miss and your Auto attacks and Main Gauche hits can no longer be parried by your target. Opportunity procs can now be used to empower your next Run-through with 15 reduced energy cost, higher greed chance, and 5% more damage.” Removes RtB and Ruthlessness.

(Chill, this is MY take)

Explaining: I wanted to give SnD a new flavor that wouldn’t be too hard to balance or implement. The change to the attack speed increase is to relieve the dull feeling of refresh buffs, and instead focus on keeping the momentum during a fight. Uses the regular SnD buff icon.

“Relentless Assault”: SnD could change how your abilities feel. Saber slash would no longer feel like a spam button, but a relentless assault on your enemy that would soon reward you. Cp management then becomes more predictable. Would have a seperate stacking buff icon you could track.

Parry and Miss immunity: The anti-parry and accuracy bonus is meant to reflect the “Swordsman” theme that the Talent could give. So, when focused on 1 target, the Outlaw’s blades will not be stopped. Mainly though, the bonus makes the increase to white damage more insured and useful.

Opportunity Procs: Although the most important thing with the idea of SnD is its consistency, while trying to make it more fun and flashy I began to play with the idea of adding an element of skill using the already in game Opportunity Procs. A rogue will always will take more opportunities to save some hassle while getting the most out of openings. The Proc window, as is, last 10 seconds and would be a bit to easy to bank for an empowered RT, so I would suggest the window time be shortened to 5 seconds. Making sure to use your Procs for the correct situation, either a free slow + Cp or a better RT, will set apart good Outlaw’s from the bad. The added Greed proc chance would make SnD best for AoE and give it a desperately needed reason to be occasionally picked.

(SIDE NOTE : MfD is a large reason to not pick SnD even with this or a better change, so I would Replace the most unused talent, Parley, with MfD. It doesn’t really deserve a 100 spot anyway.)

SO, Yes it may seem like much, but with this option players would have their output numbers mainly governed by input effort and not partially by luck. The removal of ruthlessness is to not only further mix up the play style but also add some easy balance. I’m no expert.

“Lots of Cp, variable damage, and buff reaction”, V.S, “Lot’s of Energy, Steady damage with room to improve, and proc reaction/management”

Outlaw is all about reaction and taking opportunities, as it should be, but I just feel like there isn’t enough ways to explore this. While I personally have no problems with RtB, besides it costing energy and the buff imbalance, I can acknowledge that it would be comforting and refreshing to have a different playstyle to shift to like some specs have. Just an idea.

STOP! Before you flame this post and me (IQ 75, scrub lord, toddler, casual, optimist),

This is just a an idea, I don’t see many rogues actually giving any ideas that take into account how lazy, prideful, and disconnected blizz is so at least I’m giving one. It’s better than sitting around complaining or just switching specs and ignoring the flaws.
SO, I invite you to post your own SnD fix/replacement in the reply section below. And please try to resist the urge to be that WoW player from south park,so post something useful/smart. It’s just an idea, and this is just a game.

Thx

[Richie311]

Make it roll truebearing baseline.

[Ivpiv]

SnD has always worked like this. I don't see changing it in any serious way is needed.
What i don't understand is that they´ve allowed it to be so crap compared to the skill it replaces for so long. Its like wat a 15% damage DECREASE to take SnD over RtB..

Just give it % haste or % energy regen aswell and you´re done. If you want excitement, go RtB.

I don't consider it boring, expecially with the huge attack speed buff it gives, it gets really fun that you attack REALLY fast procc offhand procs master procs alot of stuff happens, i´d prefer slice n dice to RtB any day.

[Twdft]

1. have SnD do roughly the same damage as a 3-roll RTB
2. have SnD baseline, but it cancels existing RTB buffs and vice versa
3. give us Shadowstep on the free talent spot

This way you can reliably have a solid damage buff whenever you need it and you can gamble for the godmode that a 6-roll is.

[Sinbad101]

1. have SnD do roughly the same damage as a 3-roll RTB
2. have SnD baseline, but it cancels existing RTB buffs and vice versa
3. give us Shadowstep on the free talent spot

This way you can reliably have a solid damage buff whenever you need it and you can gamble for the godmode that a 6-roll is.

1. But to balance that they would then just nerf the damage you get from 3 buffs.which would make RtB useless, which if you pay attention to them, is NOT something they want to do.

2. Then they'd have an empty talent place. Plus it would be just a waste for the player as they would still then have to spend Cp + Energy to get an attack speed buff instead of rolling for different buffs.

3. Shadowstep would just be pointless added mobility that doesn't fit the "Fantasy" of Outlaw and is actually less useful than Grappling hook.
"on the free talent spot"......???, Explain plz

Thx for ideas tho, but try to consider not only the way your changes would play out but how blizzard thinks.

This is the same problem with the whole "RtB always gives 2 buffs" idea that still plagues the forums and something they actually flat out shot down in the Q&A.

[MatadorMedia]

I remember I hated the hell out of Savage Roar for druids, so when the talent came out to just removed Roar I was all about it. So I get it baked in with 5% less effect, worth it to me. Give a similar setup to rogues maybe? Then you can just not worry about it.

[Sinbad101]

SnD has always worked like this. I don't see changing it in any serious way is needed.
What i don't understand is that they´ve allowed it to be so crap compared to the skill it replaces for so long. Its like wat a 15% damage DECREASE to take SnD over RtB..

Just give it % haste or % energy regen aswell and you´re done. If you want excitement, go RtB.

I don't consider it boring, expecially with the huge attack speed buff it gives, it gets really fun that you attack REALLY fast procc offhand procs master procs alot of stuff happens, i´d prefer slice n dice to RtB any day.

I'm not discussing DAMAGE here, b/c honestly a 10% buff to RT and a change to SS's energy to 40 would fix that, but mainly because MOST people view it as boring and i just thought it should/could be more interesting.

But, I won't say your idea is invalid b/c you cared enough to actaully give an idea on how to "improve" it. BUt, my rogue brother, you are missing the point.

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Make it roll truebearing baseline.

TO strong....,

but at least it's something .


Aethyus Had an idea of baking TB into Blurred time and just replacing it with a buff that's on par with the rest of the buffs. That way you only have the effect during AR, but it would remove AR from the reduction list. Meaning you wouldn't sacrifice that CD reduction by picking SnD. Anything else?
You gotta think about Balance and how they think.

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I remember I hated the hell out of Savage Roar for druids, so when the talent came out to just removed Roar I was all about it. So I get it baked in with 5% less effect, worth it to me. Give a similar setup to rogues maybe? Then you can just not worry about it.

I think i get what you're saying.. but can you explain? I Haven't played feral since cata.

[Deleted]

Give it back to sub and make it regen energy. Im just sad that its gone from sub .
But make true bearing baseline ffs, its like the only thing thats really nice about rtb (shark is cool too).

[KrassusMMO]

make SnD as is baseline, make RtB a talent.
basically, just swap the two.

you may say that RtB will be needed for max dmg, but consider this. SnD + one of the other two lvl 100 talents will be more competitive.

and thus, you stop the tears about RNG. Only the people who like it can have it.

[Greylan]

I'd just remove S&D and make a talent that interacts with RtB in some way.

[Sinbad101]

Give it back to sub and make it regen energy. Im just sad that its gone from sub .
But make true bearing baseline ffs, its like the only thing thats really nice about rtb (shark is cool too).

So... Remove it? and give old ruthlessness back? They won't do that but good on you for the input. I think if you're a SUb main tho you're on the wrong thread, but hi.

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make SnD as is baseline, make RtB a talent.
basically, just swap the two.

you may say that RtB will be needed for max dmg, but consider this. SnD + one of the other two lvl 100 talents will be more competitive.

and thus, you stop the tears about RNG. Only the people who like it can have it.

Thus making RtB have the same issue as SnD, not being worth the loss of MfD.
and
NOT addressing that SnD is still boring and they want the spec's main thing to be RtB. So they would probably never swap them but i like the simplicity of the idea. I wish it was simple.

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I'd just remove S&D and make a talent that interacts with RtB in some way.

Blizzard likes SnD, Blizzard is in charge, Blizzard is an idiot.

So any ideas on how to change/fix SnD and if it's "replace it"/ "remove it", then with what? explain.

IF that's the case, maybe something fun like:

"Fortune's exchange" - "empower your RtB buffs, doubling the effects, but exchange 25% of your total health per buff for the remanded of the buff's duration." 2 min CD.

SO that way if you get 1 buff you could still do good DPS, but if you use it at 3 buffs you are left with such a small amount of health (an add could kill you) that's it's a measured risk you need to think about. BUt this way you can't ever use it at 6 buffs and thus be OP b/c it would flat out kill you.

But you have to think about balance. And theme.

[Greylan]

Blizzard likes SnD, Blizzard is in charge, Blizzard is an idiot.

So any ideas on how to change/fix SnD and if it's "replace it"/ "remove it", then with what? explain.

Well, I'm not sure there's any evidence of them liking it other than it still being in the game, but it could easily be a matter of they left it to stem complaints regarding class fantasy.

Some talent that interacts with RtB is what I'd replace it with -- perhaps "Slice the Bones", which increases your attack speed, and gives you 2 RtB buffs -- it would remove the highs of 3 and 6 and the lows of 1.

I think something that interacts with RtB would be more fun than the current S&D.

[MatadorMedia]

I think i get what you're saying.. but can you explain? I Haven't played feral since cata.

Savage Roar increased feral druid damage by like 25%, and you had to cast it with combo points. It is basically the same setup as casting Slice and Dice. So, one of the talents that came out last expansion maybe was to have a passive Savage Roar but at only 15-20% or something. I took that talent and never had to cast Savage Roar again. It meant all my combo points were spent on bleeds and big hits instead. Technically it was a DPS loss but not significantly so; the peace of mind was worth it for sure.

[Sinbad101]

Well, I'm not sure there's any evidence of them liking it other than it still being in the game, but it could easily be a matter of they left it to stem complaints regarding class fantasy.

Some talent that interacts with RtB is what I'd replace it with -- perhaps "Slice the Bones", which increases your attack speed, and gives you 2 RtB buffs -- it would remove the highs of 3 and 6 and the lows of 1.

I think something that interacts with RtB would be more fun than the current S&D.

True. But with that they'd nerf the potential DPS of 2 buffs and that would make RtB in-viable. There IS evidence that they DO like RtB tho, so i don't think they ever want SnD to ever be better for Average Overtime DPS, which is what that kind of buff + the consistency of the talent would do to SnD.

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Savage Roar increased feral druid damage by like 25%, and you had to cast it with combo points. It is basically the same setup as casting Slice and Dice. So, one of the talents that came out last expansion maybe was to have a passive Savage Roar but at only 15-20% or something. I took that talent and never had to cast Savage Roar again. It meant all my combo points were spent on bleeds and big hits instead. Technically it was a DPS loss but not significantly so; the peace of mind was worth it for sure.

AH, so idk how that aplies to SnD but if we take that logic and applly it to RtB... idk how that would work.
Because we're not talking DPS my man. We're talking about game play and fun factor.

-IF you made SnD's current effect passive without action, then it would be MORE boring.
-IF you made the DPS gain it would give you passive, it would be MORE boring AND less thematic.
-You can't make RtB passive without taking away the player's only choice over the ability, re rolling.
-IF you translated the DPS gain from the average RtB roll and made THAT passive (like 20%) then you would make it Boring and also take away any kind of reaction or action the player would have.


I wish there was a simple answer to the issue but from what i've spent hours studying, the only course of action, and the only thing blizzard is LIKELY to do, is to change/buff SnD.

And just buffing it wouldn't solve 2 out of the 4 issues with it that i listed that many players have. (this is blizzard's issue/disconnect, "maybe add more haste" was their words.)

So the best thing to do is to change it, which is what this thread seeks to discuss.

[Donald Hellscream]

I don't know maybe add something more interesting than 100% increased attack speed, something that makes it feel as good as when you get a good roll with roll the bones but obviously not something that makes it much more powerful as that would "force" people into taking it.

Now I personally love roll the bones for the ideas behind it and even though a bad roll streak can be frustrating I do still find it so much better than a flat attack speed increase that slice and dice would provide. So for me to take Slice and Dice they'd need to add something that makes the talent much more interesting.. Not sure what though, maybe giving it an additional chance to do something cool like summoning a bunch of ghostly buccaneers to slice and dice shit or something.

[Deleted]

They will never make a talent thats going to be "better" than RtB, but they can make a talent in place of SnD (i mean come on they wont make it better than RtB) that gives you a higher chance to get at least 2 buffs every RtB.

[KrassusMMO]

you know, all in all, I don't think RtB was/is a bad idea.
At the end of the day, it's a unique ability. No other class has something similar. Is it not truly cool when you roll 6 buffs?
Of course you can't/shouldn't always do that. you would be OP. So it's for those ppl who don't get easily frustrated, and like to test their luck. that's what it is. Sure, you can argue that simming it over 500 mil damage it's a DPS increase over SnD, and it may very well should be, but realistically, over a 5 min fight, it's all about luck.
If you like that kind of gameplay, I think you should have it.

What I don't like is that people are forced into it. This should not be baseline. I see it like the Spriest Surrender to Madness. Super cool as a talent, maybe make it a bit on the stronger side (but not surrender levels, of course), but don't force it on people.

Yeah SnD can be boring. Sure. But it's done the same thing since Vanilla. it's like saying cheap shot is boring, or blind. You may argue that combat was more fun during the days of the red buff, but here we are. You now have a ranged stun and a grappling hook.

The spec can't be fun for everyone. I personally don't enjoy it. I didn't enjoy it at the beginning of the xpac, when everyone and their mum was going outlaw, I don't enjoy it now. But if the choice is between having a boring, predictable SnD rotation with a pirate theme, and a more on-the-fly decision oriented RtB spec, rejoice that you still have a choice. Imagine the life you would have if a) rtb was never designed, you had snd baseline or b) you only had rtb, and snd was pruned, as many abilities have been. wouldn't that have been bleak?

for me, the perfect solution would be that they tune the abilities so that RtB is a talent, replacing SND, as is a few % better in terms of DPS, on average, than SND + MfD or SND + DfA. Why a bit better you ask? because the other two options offer consistency, which is what you will look for most of the time, and because DfA is already cool enough. you want to maximize your DPS by that 1-3% margin? fine. Get RtB, and be prepared to suffer for it.

[fcc]

I'd make it haste instead of attack speed, done.

[SeyserKoze]

I don't know why Slice and Dice is even an option. Having a talent that removes RtB altogether is mind boggling. RtB is what the spec is all about and Blizzard wants it to be that way. A dice roll is the flavor of Outlaw. Blizzard has said something similar a few times when defending it.

[wombats23]

the blizzard publicity team is always mentioning how they're proud with outlaw having RtB because they say it fits the pirate theme, but they continue to keep SnD in the talent tree. That is NOT a sign of someone being proud of their work.

simply put, blizzard doesn't have the balls to remove SnD. if they were willing to put their money where their mouth was, SnD would have never existed when legion launched. trying to make SnD better is contrary to blizzard's purported support of RtB. trying to make SnD better just causes outlaw to move blizzard away from their "ideal" vision of outlaw, which will likely just result in an even dumber version of RtB next expansion (given the record of blizzard)