Truth about Garrosh?

[TickTickTick]

No, it clearly contradicts his character that was build during Cataclysm. What better example than the questline in Stonetalon Mountains that involves him. Look at what his character says and then compare to what his character did to Theramore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wc-jsKgxJs

This is really cringe cause later on they retconned it saying Garrosh was angry because the manabomb was wasted on innocent village instead of Alliance troops. But half of what he is saying here doesnt make sense when taking into account the retcon. Zzzzz. But I would say what he talks about in the Stonetalon ending is more out of character for him than bombing Theramore. Saurfang, a wise old man for him? I learn from you today to a tauren? No way. This wasnt Garrosh.

[Arrashi]

Also Thrall using magic during his mak'gora was bit unfair, but realistically did Garrosh deserve fair?

I love this logic. Everything is fine as long as it is US who are doing it.

[mickybrighteyes]

This is really cringe cause later on they retconned it saying Garrosh was angry because the manabomb was wasted on innocent village instead of Alliance troops. But half of what he is saying here doesnt make sense when taking into account the retcon. Zzzzz. But I would say what he talks about in the Stonetalon ending is more out of character for him than bombing Theramore. Saurfang, a wise old man for him? I learn from you today to a tauren? No way. This wasnt Garrosh.

that retcon...

IT felt like they planned to make Garrosh into a hero going into future expansions on the level of thrall or some such and have him get molded by characters such as Thrall or Saurfang and mello out while earning some glimmer of wisdom. And then it was all bombs out on theremore and MoP happened... like Lol nope.

I was expecting him to go the same route as Varian. Stupidly aggressive for a time and then mello out cause they learn better. I mean I saw that in the early play through during cata, but that's just not how things turned out in the transition into MoP

[Traveler Voltin]

"Horde core territories"

Why is that a core Horde territory, while Jaina and her united human forces arrived there before the orcs, along with the night elves living there for thousands upon thousands of years. Kalimdor is not "Horde core territory". If it is anyone's core territory, it is of the night elves and tauren. The Barrens and Dustwallow Marsh belonged to Theramore as much as they belonged to Orgrimmar, especially due to the fact that the Alliance expedition lead by her was the first to establish settlements there, only to be attacked by the orcs.

Let me just explain what you've just done, which is what usually goes on around here; I pointed out that Undercity is as much of a military target(if not a hundred times more of a military target) than Theramore ever will be. You then - instead of addressing this fact - started micromanaging the whole post and ignored the whole point of it; the point of Undercity being bombing-worthy as much as Theramore is, yet nobody bombed it. Hell, they are not even living beings, yet nobody is bombing them after everything they've done.

Fact is that Undercity is the Horde's capital for all its military endeavors against the Alliance in the Eastern Kingdoms, just as Theramore was a major staging ground for the Alliance military(ie Alterac Valley, Stromgarde front, Gilnean front around Silverpine). If Theramore was a valid military target due to the conventional forces it moved in, then Undercity is a valid target too, especially considering the biological warfare they're engaged in, on top of the limitless conventional resources(ie raising the fallen into one of their own).



I won't ponder about the individual kingdoms because that was never the point and I don't intend to assist the derailment. Maybe it will even help you to address the point of the post, instead of derailing it.

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Thrall, the one who cheats, used elements already? Who would've guessed that a cheat cheated before lol he basically allowed it to happen because he is literally the only one to who needs it, otherwise he would've been beaten easily.

Thrall is the only warchief that allowed such cheating to go by and utilizes it himself. He changed orcish customs and accomodated it to whatever floats his boat. Hell, this isn't even about wether magic, elements, fel or whatever is allowed in Mak'gora; it is about one guy changing the entire concept of a duel that was melee-only for generation upon generation, only because it allows him to win.

Shaman and paladin fights aren't evenl Mak'gora because Mak'gora is done between members of whatever Horde.

so your blind hatred of thrall makes you not listen. Magic has been used before end of story. The fact that their is set of traditional rules that garrosh and Cairne used says alot. Like maybe there is 2 versions or the challenger sets the rules.

It was an orc shaman vs a blood elf paladin. Hordes races.

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This is really cringe cause later on they retconned it saying Garrosh was angry because the manabomb was wasted on innocent village instead of Alliance troops. But half of what he is saying here doesnt make sense when taking into account the retcon. Zzzzz. But I would say what he talks about in the Stonetalon ending is more out of character for him than bombing Theramore. Saurfang, a wise old man for him? I learn from you today to a tauren? No way. This wasnt Garrosh.

It was recton because.
Garrosh creator: i want him honorable
Rest of the team: lets make garrosh a douche.

There was no communication during cata.

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trust me pal, your be saying it ad nauseum, it won't sink in.

In here it wont. The official forums it did. They actually listen.

[Darth-Piekus]

It's not the First half ass retcon they did. I remember the Majority of the Orcs dissapearing like Hudini from Orgrimmar to join Voljin existing somewhere on the horizon like a rainbow after a rain courtesy of people who are no longer part of Blizzard. After that it's no wonder the game lost half of it's subscribers with shit like this.

[Trassk]

It's not the First half ass retcon they did. I remember the Majority of the Orcs dissapearing like Hudini from Orgrimmar to join Voljin existing somewhere on the horizon like a rainbow after a rain courtesy of people who are no longer part of Blizzard. After that it's no wonder the game lost half of it's subscribers with shit like this.

That unfortunately seems to be how blizzards wow team is run, like many companies. There's little point growing attached to minor characters because their be forgotten after an expansion, and major ones just get jumbled around based on current writers expectations, so nothings ever consistent. In a way it's better a character be forgotten in that regard.

[Friendlyimmolation]

The Alliance arrived there first before the orcs and established their settlements long before orcs ever had one. If we are going for a human versus orc arguement over calling it core territory of either faction, then the expedition lead by Jaina has more right to call it her/Alliance core territory than the orcs do.

If we are going for a tauren versus night elf arguement over calling it core territory of either faction, then it belongs to neither because it was only used for travel and in the tauren case, nomadic movement.

If we are going to talk about adjacency, then it is adjacent to ancestral night elven lands and to the land the humans came to and established settlements in before the orcs had any in Kalimdor.

How does this logic work? Tauren have been using the barrens for thousands of years, the night elves had not, just because humans show up doesn't magically make it alliance territory. Your entire point makes no sense "barrens isnt horde territory because humans showed up despite quite clearly is being said it is core horde territory. Is Ashenvale now horde territory because some orcs showed up? And lordaeron must be alliance territory because garithos was there once.

[Deleted]

No, it clearly contradicts his character that was build during Cataclysm. What better example than the questline in Stonetalon Mountains that involves him. Look at what his character says and then compare to what his character did to Theramore.

Stonetalon Mountains is the contradiction, not the rule. Even so, it was about wasting a good WMD on a neutral target.

It's like several people said on this thread, Afrasiabi wanted a "honorable" Garrosh and created the Stonetalon event as so, but on the rest of the game, including other media (As Our Fathers Before Us and Wolfheart), Garrosh was being written as the ultimate douche.

[Deleted]

I thought Garrosh's turn to the evil side was done very well. Think it was Golden who described Garrosh as been very insecure about himself, that he had to measure up to be a big bad warchief. His way of doing that was the "orc" way conquer your foes and take their land.

Also Thrall using magic during his mak'gora was bit unfair, but realistically did Garrosh deserve fair?

Same writer who stated that Jaina has a strong core. Yea right, that's why you kill your own father for the Horde, begging for peace. And look at her now. "Strong core" Christy Golden? I think Christy Golden can stay writing fan-fiction, I think Garrosh was a powerful character, he alone stood against the world.

And about fair? Of course. Mak'gora is about fair and honourable, it's a sacred duel of the Orcs. You respect the traditions, or you are not a real Orc. Thrall choose to be not a real Orc.

[Aquamonkey]

"Horde core territories"

Why is that a core Horde territory, while Jaina and her united human forces arrived there before the orcs, along with the night elves living there for thousands upon thousands of years. Kalimdor is not "Horde core territory". If it is anyone's core territory, it is of the night elves and tauren. The Barrens and Dustwallow Marsh belonged to Theramore as much as they belonged to Orgrimmar, especially due to the fact that the Alliance expedition lead by her was the first to establish settlements there, only to be attacked by the orcs.

You made the comparison of Undercity and Theramore. UC isn't attacking core Alliance territories while Theramore was. Don't change the argument to what the Horde was attacking in Kalimdor. Who settled when is a red herring. Durotar is the capital of the Horde. Theramore being founded in Kalimdor earlier is irrelevant, they settled different locations.

Dustwallow Marsh belongs to Theramore, yes. The Barrens are ancestral tauren lands.

Let me just explain what you've just done, which is what usually goes on around here; I pointed out that Undercity is as much of a military target(if not a hundred times more of a military target) than Theramore ever will be. You then - instead of addressing this fact - started micromanaging the whole post and ignored the whole point of it; the point of Undercity being bombing-worthy as much as Theramore is, yet nobody bombed it. Hell, they are not even living beings, yet nobody is bombing them after everything they've done.

Fact is that Undercity is the Horde's capital for all its military endeavors against the Alliance in the Eastern Kingdoms, just as Theramore was a major staging ground for the Alliance military(ie Alterac Valley, Stromgarde front, Gilnean front around Silverpine). If Theramore was a valid military target due to the conventional forces it moved in, then Undercity is a valid target too, especially considering the biological warfare they're engaged in, on top of the limitless conventional resources(ie raising the fallen into one of their own).

I never denied that UC was a valid military target. Its participation in various fronts is irrelevant. It is part of the enemy faction during wartime. What is incorrect is the comparison between Theramore's aggression and UC's aggression. UC didn't attack core Alliance territories, but Theramore did attack core Horde territories.

Even in game design of the starting zones you can see this depiction. Who is a major antagonist in the orc and troll starting zones? Alliance. Tauren? Alliance. Goblin? Alliance. BElf? Alliance. Only Forsaken and pandaren don't really have Alliance acting as antagonists in their starting zones.

Now lets look at Alliance starting zones. Gnome and dwarf? Random independents. Humans? Random independents. NElves? Random independents. Draenei? Independent BElves. Pandaren? Independents. Only worgen have Horde as its antagonist in the starting areas.

Alliance has its fingers all up in the core Horde territories. While Horde is fighting at the outskirts of Alliance territories or in independent FFA areas.

[Darth-Piekus]

Theres a difference between attack and being a base in order to make a military Line to defend your allies to a war a certain Orc started. Even the Horde leaders admit that it was wrong to attack Jaina and a mistake which they paid a lot in a different universe.

[Friendlyimmolation]

Theres a difference between attack and being a base in order to make a military Line to defend your allies to a war a certain Orc started. Even the Horde leaders admit that it was wrong to attack Jaina and a mistake which they paid a lot in a different universe.

Even jaina says she is the biggest alliance force in kalimdor at this point as far as wrong goes maybe the mana bomb is wrong but to say it's wrong that you can't have a cake and eat it too makes no sense

[Darth-Piekus]

Even your leaders claim it was wrong to attack her.

[Zulkhan]

This isn't about heroism in this instance - the Silverpine events shown and clearly, like the events in Ashenvale, that he would not tolerate certain methods even if it helped his warmongering nature and that he isn't welling to go that far. The MoP events changed that, hence the shift.

I tell you that's not the case, which is confirmed in-game. Garrosh disliked the Forsaken by default (blatantly stated in Heart of War) and the Wrath Gate events utterly validated his bias (confirmed by the Forsaken themselves in Silverpine). It was never really about "methods", which is why he nonetheless let the Forsaken use a weakened strain of the blight or why despite his initial bigoted complaint, he nonetheless accepted Sylvanas' methods the moment she remembered him those were essential to win his war.

And Ashenvale simply confirmed his dislike for demonic magic (which was carried on all the way to WoD) and the fact that he was a complete douche, bitching about "muh demon magic" yet ignoring that Splintertree was nonetheless saved through such efforts, demanding the execution of the grunt who used it, let alone placing a bounty over your head the moment you turned his back on him.

You can try to deny that as much as you want, but most of the discussion from that period in time, before we know all we know about MoP, got the impression that he is being actually a rather rational about not wanting the undead to raise armies for him.

I don't care about what people discussed back then, I care about what people discuss now. People is using events like those to pretend Garrosh was something different back then. Or, to be more precise, he was meant for something else. Because Garrosh kind of changed indeed, that's the point of his character. He kept blabbering stuff and progressively thrown it right into the can when he couldn't get what he wanted. Garrosh changed a little bit everytime he suffered defeat and humiliation. This vicious progression brought to "MoP Garrosh".

Still, just because he disliked undeath or distrusted Sylvanas and the Forsaken back then don't mean whatsoever that he held different opinions about all these matters in MoP. Heck, his dislike for warlocks and fel magic was still hilariously blatant in MoP, let alone such dislike caused the creation of the Iron Horde of WoD in the first place. And likewise, there was really little reason for why he couldn't have grown to like a tool capable to literally weaponize emotions.

Read Alex's quote again. They intended him to do more heroic deeds, and that could have lead anywhere. We can agree to disagree; there was no "writing on the wall", especially if you remember the general reactions at the time towards Garrosh AND Varian after Wolfheart. I am 100% convinced that I am correct and you can't change my mind, but you are very welcome to disagree, and I respect that.

Alex can say whatever he wants, but facts proved that he was the "black sheep" of the development team when it came to Garrosh. He's the one who came up with the Stonetalon chain and talked of "miscommunication" as the main reason for that chain to happen. Wolfheart did nothing but confirm Garrosh's willingness to go for extreme methods when it came to conquest, it just happened that such methods were still relatively "softcore" because his reign was at its dawn and he had yet to endure failure and the hurting of his precious pride. Still, the premise for what Garrosh would have become was there already and the end of the novel was the actual setting stone for the next one (Tides of War).

I get it you aren't a fan of the character, and I can't say that I am, but those occurrences can't be denied as far as I am concerned, and either way, it's pointless because that arc has been concluded now for... 2 years? The man is dead.

This arguing has literally nothing to do with me being a fan or not of the character bur rather accept the character for what it is. Because it really seems that being a "Garrosh fan" is all about liking what he was "supposed to be" rather than what he is, which is rather funny if not outright contradictory if you ask me.

I've always been under the impression that the horde needed garrosh wether they liked it or not. Thrall would have let jaina and the night elves bent them over backwards

I say Garrosh was far from needed but Thrall needed to go indeed. In fact, he had the humility to kind of accept that he wasn't really fit to handle the situation, hence Garrosh became Warchief. It just didn't have to be Garrosh, though.

Garrosh up untill MoP wasa textbook example of a Warsong orc. Was he violent? Yes, but he was in no way the mad orc he was turned into in MoP.

Garrosh wasn't mad at all in MoP. He even went far to blame Ishi for desiring to slaughter Alliance children in their sleep. "There is killing and there is murder" or something along those lines.

Garrosh simply escalated his efforts after his frustration reached the boiling point and turned into obsession.

He went from someone that condemns raising fallen enemies into the undead to someone who obliteras these very same enemies using powerful artifacts. It just goes to show that his story is inconsistent and that his character was wasted.

It doesn't show anything, in fact is not even clear where's the contradiction here. You make it sound like he ever gave two shits about his enemies. Yes, he dislikes the undead and distrusted the Forsaken, that's the whole deal. He never shown any care for how his enemies die.

In fact, he cared so much about humans that despite such disliking, all Sylvanas needed to convince Garrosh to pretty much accept said methods was reminding him that his war couldn't have been won otherwise, doing nothing more but leaving a lackey behind to keep an eye on her.

No, it clearly contradicts his character that was build during Cataclysm. What better example than the questline in Stonetalon Mountains that involves him. Look at what his character says and then compare to what his character did to Theramore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wc-jsKgxJs

Yep, totally against WMDs. Because, you know, that bomb built itself and wasn't totally intended to be used somewhere.

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It's not the First half ass retcon they did. I remember the Majority of the Orcs dissapearing like Hudini from Orgrimmar to join Voljin existing somewhere on the horizon like a rainbow after a rain courtesy of people who are no longer part of Blizzard. After that it's no wonder the game lost half of it's subscribers with shit like this.

Anectodal evidence at its finest.

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Even your leaders claim it was wrong to attack her.

Not really wrong, just inconvenient at that point in time. Literally no one believed it was "morally wrong" going to assault Theramore.

[Darth-Piekus]

“Warchief! The lady Jaina is too powerful!” came a voice. It soundedlike a Forsaken. “She has been passive and quiet. Rouse her, and we will have war on our hands—a war we are not prepared to fight!”

“She has behaved with fairness time and again, when she could have responded with force or deceit!” Baine shouted. “Her diplomatic efforts and her decision to work with Warchief Thrall have saved countless lives! To storm her realm with no provocation does not give honor to the Horde, and it is foolish besides!”There were many murmurs of agreement. Other Alliance leaders were far less favored, and the lady Jaina had those who respected her among the Horde. Baine was heartened to hear the murmurs, but Garrosh’s next words plunged the tauren back into despair.

Eltrigg even says these things. “It is true that the Horde has done much to recover from the Cataclysm,”Eitrigg began. “And it has been under your leadership,Warchief Garrosh. You are right. Yours is the title. Yours are the decisions.But yours also is the responsibility. Think for a moment about the consequences of this choice.”“The night elves will be gone; the Alliance will be afraid to attack;and Kalimdor will belong to the Horde. Those will be the consequences, elder.” Garrosh uttered the word not with respect, but almost with contempt. Baine noticed that two or three orcs frowned atthe warchief’s tone of voice and were listening intently to Eitrigg.Eitrigg shook his head. “No,” he said. “That is a hope. You hope to begin claiming this continent as ours. And you might. You would also begin a war that would involve armies from all over this world, Horde and Alliance, locked in a combat that would take lives and drain resources .Have we not suffered through enough of those costs?”

“Garrosh!” he said. “There is none here who can say that I do not love the Horde. Nor any who can say that I do not honor your title.”Garrosh did not speak. He well knew that he had not come to Baine’s aid when it was needed, and yet the tauren still had acknowledged him as warchief. Baine had even saved Garrosh’s life once. Theorc made no attempt to silence Baine… yet.“I know this lady. You do not. She has worked tirelessly for peace,knowing well that we are not monsters but people—like the people
who compose the Alliance.” His sharp eyes scanned the crowd, and any rabble-rousers who might have been tempted to protest his labeling humans, night elves, dwarves, draenei, worgen, and gnomes as“people” wisely held their tongues. “I have received aid and shelter in her home. She helped me when even members of the Horde would
not. She does not deserve this treachery, this—” and here Garrosh threatened Baine to share his father fate.

With these quotes and the murmurs of Agreement inside there a lot tend to think that it was wrong to attack Theramore. You are right though on one thing. It was irrelevant as Garrosh wanted to attack Theramore and it didn't really matter what the others thought. However that doesn't make it justifiable.

[Zulkhan]

snip

You just confirmed what I say. It was considered inconvenient to attack Theramore, rather than being wrong for any legal or moral reason. The member coming closest to judge the attack on Theramore a "dishonorable" move was Baine, the one who held a debt to Jaina and consequently held a bias on the matter, as he's the only Horde member voicing those kind of complaints.

[Darth-Piekus]

And there were many murmurs of Agreement. Garrosh was the only member that wanted that badly to attack.

[Zulkhan]

And there were many murmurs of Agreement.

And there were Tauren that cheered when Garrosh proposed to level the place. Nobodies can have all kind of opinions. When it comes to leaders though, the deal says: Sylvanas voiced opposition for her own convenience, Lor'themar didn't say shit, Gallywix was up for it, Vol'jin was against the "relocation" of Night Elves but didn't say a thing about Theramore (and even the Night Elf matter was disliked because of the potential Alliance reaction) and Eitrigg outright complained about potential losses and costs of the war after all the shit the Horde went through in Cataclysm. Again, Baine was the only leader voicing those kind of complaints and even for him became kind of an afterthought when he realized Garrosh's intention of "escalating" the war and the fact that he led Baine's people pointlessly against Theramore when he had an ace in his sleeve as big as the mana bomb.

Garrosh was the only member that wanted that badly to attack.

Nope. Again, some of Baine's own guards were quite happy about it. Tauren. Not "Nazi Orcs". The Darkspear bat-riders of the Horde rebellion label the Alliance PC as "Theramore scum".

[Traveler Voltin]

Horde was fine attacking theramore.
Horde was not happy that mana bomb was used.

The end.

[Darth-Piekus]

Sylvannas feared the consequences, Gallywix said yes only because of Money and I am sure he would have said no if the cost was not worthy, Lorthemar didn't say anything and Voljin was against the whole plan removing the Night Elves from their ancestral lands but he was talking about the whole plan from the start which started from taking down Theramore. Garrosh wanted to attack with all his heart and Baine was the one who didn't wanted to attack at all. And you forgot Eltrigg being against also as he gave his own moral reasons as to how more needless bloodshed this would cause. Also a lot of nobodies as you call them agreed not to attack from the Orcs not Tauren (see what I did there)and a lot of nobodies as I will call them wanted to attack from the Tauren as you said.

So we have Eltrigg, Baine and Voljin against the attack out of moral reasons and then we have Gallywix and Garrosh with the First out of Money reasons and the second out of the fact that he simply wanted them out of the Picture since they were simply the enemy justifiable or not. This is hardly from the nobody cared out of moral reasons claim.

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Anyway. That doesn't really matter anymore. It's irrelevant to the topic as Garrosh was designed to be an asshole from Wrath of the Lich King. We already had a taste of his opinion and his plans from when he announced them in that quote during the tournament. We knew what would happen the moment he got the position.