Momentum in 7.1.5

[Wardonis]

Demonic build isn't for bosses - chaos blades *DESTROYS* it on dungeon bosses if that's what you want.

It's for trash, and given usual trash spread and the ease of using walls / barriers you don't need to leave melee much at all.
@Wardonis Demonic is about short burst windows, yes. That is exactly what the talent is, short frequent bursts.

NO, demonic is for extended fights and aoe fights. You would use it in raids and mythic+. It is in no way a burst ability. its an endurance ability. Demonic + demonic appetite + blind fury + nemesis puts you in demon form for over 1 minute. over the course of a 5 minute fight you will spend roughly 3 1/2 minutes in demon form. the build lacks burst but has tremendously high sustained dps, i've personally sustained 400k+ on a target dummy single target. in aoe when you are chain pulling it's even more insane.

the build will not be so good for things like heroic dungeons because it has a bit of wind up and down time will kill it; or mythic 15+ because it lacks burst. on long fights it shines very clearly. especially if there are adds
This is a screen shot of a 400k+ dummy test http://i.imgur.com/HrFCb3w.jpg

[Raiju]

You still seem to be missing the point and what everyone is talking about with burst windows.

[Deleted]

Why? Theres no problem as it stands. Just people disliking not having one build and one build only. Which must include momentum, cuz "muh skill cap".

Momentum is amazing and only plebs dislike it. "Muh brain hurts from thinkin about whats on the floor"

[Deleted]

I think he feels burdened with having to press 2 skills every 2 minutes for a damage increase.

u macro them in one

[Deleted]

demonic isn't a burst talent, its sustained damage. you spend 75% of a 5 min fight in demon form. to make that happen you need to spam the crap out of chaos strike. with momentum you both spend too many GCDs casting abilities that are not chaos strike, and you spend too much time out of range to cast chaos strike.

If that's the conclusion you came with, then you're really really playing Momentum wrong.
Inside Momentum you have 3-4 globals, all you really need to do is planning to have enough abilities to put inside that window, and all that's required to you is to plan in advance your Fel Rush usage since you'd have to use it anyway.

Not being in range is solved with proper positioning aswell. Eye Beam has the range advantage too. There's literally no downsides in using Momentum alongside Demonic, assuming proper play.

[malgor21]

Momentum will always be best in m+ period. Like even in CoS Tyranical you will still choose it. And yes you can do optimal momentum rotation if you know the fight well (Have done up to +16 Tyranical)

Blind Fury is still meh for higher geared, I don't think it scales well. However, it can be really good for low gear/low haste. When you start getting haste, imo demon blades/felblade will outperform everything, because they outscale the other talents. The extra fury you get will mean more meta uptime with the shoulders and more aoe with chaos cleave.

However, I still think Demonic will be useful for fortified esp due to Soul Rending. However, on tyranical u will most likely run netherwalk + chaos blades. Think for example BRH. In tyranical you definitely will need the new Netherwalk for anything over +17. On fortified however, you will get much more dps due to not having to LoS archers/Blade Dance before 2nd boss.

[Deleted]

Momentum is hands down the best in anything that's not pure ST, it simply becomes a bitch to use with Demonic because you get a 1+ minute burst window every 4 minutes, which you can never cover with momentum anyway, and 9s+ windows at random intervals.

You might want to sit on FR/VR just to get the most out of that incoming Eye Beam + Annihilation spam, and you waste uptime since you didn't get a reset with soul fragments.
You might get so many fragments that you actually get 16-24 seconds of meta, and you can't cover it with momentum anymore, the window is too long.

Of course, you'll have moments where you need to use Demon's Bite, and pooling-spending is something that momentum synergizes with. Demonic is simply way too random for momentum, but that doesn't mean they don't work together at all.

Blind Fury is still meh for higher geared, I don't think it scales well.

Blind Fury was made specifically for Demonic + Demonic Appetite, and it is bad if used without these two talents. It is however very strong with it. According to my latest sim, Cinidaria + Raddons being the legendaries equipped and no tier pieces, Felblade generates around 1015.9 fury over 5 minutes in a Demon Blades - Chaos Cleave - Chaos Blades build, while Blind Fury generates 1042.3 fury with a Demonic one. They're basically the go-to choices for different builds, Fel Mastery being a great talent for undergeared DHs (the only talent where you have a static gain regardless of talent choices and gear).

[Deleted]

Fel Mastery being a great talent for undergeared DHs (the only talent where you have a static gain regardless of talent choices and gear).

Fel rush is chaos damage, so the gain from fel mastery scales with mastery. The talent that doesn't scale well is felblade, since it does fire damage and barrely scales with haste. Fel mastery is actually the goto talent for endgame next patch.



This is ST with tier, mastery heavy gear and no legendaries.

[Deleted]

Very surprising, actually. I was certain 1.8 Fel Rushes per minute aren't going to outdamage ~2 Chaos Strikes per minute. Perhaps this is caused by lack of legendaries, or too low crit?

Regardless, nice find, thanks a ton. I'll keep including Fel Mastery in some baseline sims now (wrongly assumed it's going to be outscaled).

[malgor21]

Very surprising, actually. I was certain 1.8 Fel Rushes per minute aren't going to outdamage ~2 Chaos Strikes per minute. Perhaps this is caused by lack of legendaries, or too low crit?

Regardless, nice find, thanks a ton. I'll keep including Fel Mastery in some baseline sims now (wrongly assumed it's going to be outscaled).

If you pay attention he compares 1/3/1 and 3/3/1 builds with 2/2/2. Why the hell would you go blade dance with a felblade/demon blades build? The main point of felblade/demon blades is to maximize fury regeneration.

Both builds 1/3/1 and 3/3/1 have 25% stronger chaos strikes.

Also imo the 2/2/1 build is only geared towards having AOTHG. My only question is Cyndaria with Chaos Blades vs Shoulders with Demonic

[Wardonis]

Fel rush is chaos damage, so the gain from fel mastery scales with mastery. The talent that doesn't scale well is felblade, since it does fire damage and barrely scales with haste. Fel mastery is actually the goto talent for endgame next patch.



This is ST with tier, mastery heavy gear and no legendaries.

your numbers are off
http://i.imgur.com/HrFCb3w.jpg

sims can't do demonic right if I can parse this and show higher dps then whats expected. This isn't even one of the better tests I did. I did some that were over 450k in remnants of my vers heavy tank gear

[Littlepwny]

sims can't do demonic right if I can parse this and show higher dps then whats expected. This isn't even one of the better tests I did. I did some that were over 450k in remnants of my vers heavy tank gear

If you don't trust SimC's default action list, you can fix it to prove your point. Showing us a screenshot of a random experiment does nothing to prove that @Jep3 has incorrect numbers.

In fact, even in your screenshot, your annihilation crit more than your average; when you do 10000 experiments, your DPS will average out to the appropriate values. Like, I get it, the action list in SimC might not be optimal (it isn't, some guy had shown an improvement that provided me with over 15k DPS) but don't just post a random screenshot as "fact".

[Synthium]

In my honest opinion, if you don't like Momentum playstyle, just pick a rogue, a feral druid or an enhancement shaman. Momentum is what gives the class a very unique flavor and your rotation revolving around you positioning yourself properly, activating it and then dumping fury is what this game needs. Flavor and unique playstyle among classes/specs. Momentum should be baseline in my opinion and ofc, baseline ability damage adjusted accordingly. If you just take Nemesis as a talent, you're basically off standing and hitting.

[Pigglix]

Not really true, since you will still be using fel rush on cd, even without fel mastery and momentum.

I just wish preapred was better than demon blades, since we're getting fel blade, was really cool to VR and fel blade back or since nemesis will be better than momentum, VR and fel rush back in.

[Sarange]

Momentum is amazing and only plebs dislike it. "Muh brain hurts from thinkin about whats on the floor"

meh momentum isint that amazing.

No, im not bad. I place in 90+ percentiles with momentum, but its getting boring using the same spec at all times.

[PurpleSector]

In my honest opinion, if you don't like Momentum playstyle, just pick a rogue, a feral druid or an enhancement shaman. Momentum is what gives the class a very unique flavor and your rotation revolving around you positioning yourself properly, activating it and then dumping fury is what this game needs. Flavor and unique playstyle among classes/specs. Momentum should be baseline in my opinion and ofc, baseline ability damage adjusted accordingly. If you just take Nemesis as a talent, you're basically off standing and hitting.

Disclaimer: I have played momentum since level 98 for levelling, M+ and raids and enjoyed it.

I completely disagree with what you've said there, and I think it's a slightly inflammatory attitude to bring to the forums - telling people to go and reroll. Momentum is an interesting talent which creates a unique playstyle, but it is absolutely not the only feature of Havoc which sets it apart.

The baseline mobility of the class is, for me, what really drew me in and what I enjoyed most before raids started, and ultimately the enjoyment that I gained from this caused me to re-roll from my mage (which I had mained since Vanilla) to DH. Not only this, but there is a unique feel to Metamorphosis, (playstyle and visual) and the class is exceptional in solo content. There is obviously also the class fantasy overall, which goes without saying...

I've had a lot of fun trying to perfect momentum usage in raids, but I have to say it has an obvious downside in that it detracts from my mobility in a raid. As soon as a *target random player* or *target random area* or *soak mechanic X* mechanic requires you to move, you suddenly find that you have 0 charges of FR and have to run, just like any other melee. If anything, for me, using momentum has detracted from what I love most about the class - the exceptional mobility. I will likely try Nemesis in ST in 7.1.5 and keep FR at 1 charge to try to regain that lost mobility.

I would go so far as to throw your point right back at you, and say that if you want to blow all of your mobility for a dps increase, maybe you should go and play another melee class which doesn't have the baseline mobility at all? Frost DK might be perfect for you [yes this is tongue in cheek, as per my first point about telling others to reroll...]

[Synthium]

Disclaimer: I have played momentum since level 98 for levelling, M+ and raids and enjoyed it.

I completely disagree with what you've said there, and I think it's a slightly inflammatory attitude to bring to the forums - telling people to go and reroll. Momentum is an interesting talent which creates a unique playstyle, but it is absolutely not the only feature of Havoc which sets it apart.

The baseline mobility of the class is, for me, what really drew me in and what I enjoyed most before raids started, and ultimately the enjoyment that I gained from this caused me to re-roll from my mage (which I had mained since Vanilla) to DH. Not only this, but there is a unique feel to Metamorphosis, (playstyle and visual) and the class is exceptional in solo content. There is obviously also the class fantasy overall, which goes without saying...

I've had a lot of fun trying to perfect momentum usage in raids, but I have to say it has an obvious downside in that it detracts from my mobility in a raid. As soon as a *target random player* or *target random area* or *soak mechanic X* mechanic requires you to move, you suddenly find that you have 0 charges of FR and have to run, just like any other melee. If anything, for me, using momentum has detracted from what I love most about the class - the exceptional mobility. I will likely try Nemesis in ST in 7.1.5 and keep FR at 1 charge to try to regain that lost mobility.

I would go so far as to throw your point right back at you, and say that if you want to blow all of your mobility for a dps increase, maybe you should go and play another melee class which doesn't have the baseline mobility at all? Frost DK might be perfect for you [yes this is tongue in cheek, as per my first point about telling others to reroll...]

Maybe you should learn how not to obviously lie and use broken logic?

First of all, you couldn't use Momentum since level 98 since it's a level 106 talent.

Second of all, it sets it apart from other classes IN TERMS OF DEALING DAMAGE. Lots and lots of other classes have jumps/blinks/rolls but none of them uses it offensively so it sets Havoc DH apart from other classes in terms of how they use certain type of spells.

Third of all, if you know there is a dangerous mechanic incoming (you know, by looking at dbm) and you feel like you have to save a charge of FR in order not to kill your raid members, then you should just do what everyone else does: Use a few chaos strikes without Momentum (gasp!) and then Fel Rush the fuck away when it targets you (if it does).

Inflammatory attitude? As in medicine? Look man, I get it. You don't like using it, and would much prefer if you could play a static style. But what I am telling you, and people who think like you, is that it's pretty much the only thing setting us apart from rogues and whatnot. This builder-spender type of dpsing has existed since forever and DH would have been no different if it wasn't for Momentum.

[Fooicus]

Maybe you should learn how not to obviously lie and use broken logic?

First of all, you couldn't use Momentum since level 98 since it's a level 106 talent.

Second of all, it sets it apart from other classes IN TERMS OF DEALING DAMAGE. Lots and lots of other classes have jumps/blinks/rolls but none of them uses it offensively so it sets Havoc DH apart from other classes in terms of how they use certain type of spells.

Third of all, if you know there is a dangerous mechanic incoming (you know, by looking at dbm) and you feel like you have to save a charge of FR in order not to kill your raid members, then you should just do what everyone else does: Use a few chaos strikes without Momentum (gasp!) and then Fel Rush the fuck away when it targets you (if it does).

Inflammatory attitude? As in medicine? Look man, I get it. You don't like using it, and would much prefer if you could play a static style. But what I am telling you, and people who think like you, is that it's pretty much the only thing setting us apart from rogues and whatnot. This builder-spender type of dpsing has existed since forever and DH would have been no different if it wasn't for Momentum.

Inflammatory (adjective): (especially of speech or writing) arousing or intended to arouse angry or violent feelings. To be honest your second post (quoted above) is probably more inflammatory than your previous one.

I agree that momentum sets Havoc apart from other melee DPS, I main as Vengeance BUT love it when I get a chance to bring out my Havoc spec because I get to dart around like a right lunatic . However, I do not think that people who don't want that playstyle should pick another class - clearly blizz did not design the class with this intent either, otherwise momentum would have been baseline, not a talent.

Additionally you accuse the person of lying. However, you do not know if he tried the class out during some Beta testing before making the decision to switch, if he made the decision based upon some third party reviews of the new class or if he made the decision to switch mains during this expansion. This would actually be a more accurate definition of broken logic than that which you infer upon the person you are pointing the finger at.

[Deleted]

In my honest opinion, if you don't like Momentum playstyle, just pick a rogue, a feral druid or an enhancement shaman. Momentum is what gives the class a very unique flavor and your rotation revolving around you positioning yourself properly, activating it and then dumping fury is what this game needs. Flavor and unique playstyle among classes/specs. Momentum should be baseline in my opinion and ofc, baseline ability damage adjusted accordingly. If you just take Nemesis as a talent, you're basically off standing and hitting.

Baseline rofl, Keep your Momentum, Just don't complain if other ways of playing are equal or better.

[Deleted]

Baseline rofl, Keep your Momentum, Just don't complain if other ways of playing are equal or better.

I think it should be baseline, just because it creates a differentiate melee class to the others and gives a lot of flavor to the demon hunter, however, DH should still be able to pick nemesis (which would nulify momentum) if they want to have a less mobile-aggressive combat and one more focused on a rotation.

as ST goes, Nemesis should always be better, as cleave and aoe goes, Momentum should always be better.

That's only my humble oppinion.