Protection legion Discussion

[Ultramad]

The problem is that both the Ability Rotation in the guide as well as Lysozyme's comments suggest that Rage should only be spent on Revenge in either an emergency situation (see Priority 1) or if it is free (see Priority 4).

This. Is. Wrong.

I often coach other Warriors and have noted that one of the most common mistakes is failing to incorporate Focused Rage properly into their rotation. Specifically, they fail to cycle Vengeance, opting to only use Focused Rage when it is free from an Ultimatum proc. This is extremely poor form. With Revenge taking the place of Focused Rage, that mistake will become an even bigger issue for a number of reasons, especially when the Devastator talent is selected.

What this guide and Lysozyme are suggesting feeds directly into the problem and common misconception I just mentioned. Take a moment to review the Ability Priority section of your guide again and look for any point in the priority where you would use Revenge outside of a free proc or emergency situation (i.e., to prevent Rage cap, death, or dropping Dragon Scales). If you find one, let me know.

That guide explicitly states that everything therein assumes you already know how to play a protection warrior. If they don't know how to weave vengeance they already should not be using that priority. That priority assumes you already know and are extremely proficient and are by no uncertain terms an expert at the spec.

[Deleted]

Quick question: Is the Darkmoon:Immortality trinket really stronger than even 895 raid trinkets? And will it stay this way for Nighthold? I mostly tank M+ on my Warrior.

[Marok]

Quick question: Is the Darkmoon:Immortality trinket really stronger than even 895 raid trinkets? And will it stay this way for Nighthold? I mostly tank M+ on my Warrior.

Yes, it's extremely powerful compared to most other trinkets. In general, and unless you're comparing the same trinket, item level is not indicative of a trinket's strength.

As for Nighthold, it will most likely remain as one of the strongest options for reducing physical damage.

[Marrilaife]

so, how do you tank with fresh 110 gear? tried to do some dungeons and got my ass rekt because i couldnt build rage fast enough

What kind of dungeons?

First of all, if you're freshly dinged and get rekt, ask yourself are you pulling too much at once.

Second, you might actually not want to play with vengeance - ultimatum build which might be optimal for raiding / single target, but it's probably more complicated than just speccing into something else and forgetting focused rage exists altogether.

Booming voice is a talent usually skipped but can be useful in these situations you just find yourself dry on rage in a pinch.

Got my warrior alt up recently and didn't see that much problem when using rage on shield block then ignore pain and completely skipping focused rage. Also filling gaps between shield blocks with shockwave and artifact ability. It's annoying though you can't move during channeling it. Every other tank artifact is instant cast.

Also btw, is that your main spec? I've seen multiple times people having issues on their freshly dinged tanks only to find out "oh I levelled as dps I have no relics or traits in my tank artifact". It makes a lot of difference.

[Alaexaender]

Question about the devastator rotation, which I believe was asked earlier, but the reasoning was not clearly explained. Do we know what rage is best for survivability in terms of casting ignore pain, if you are sitting near capped rage? While a max cost ignore pain obviously gets the most out of the vengeance talent, the lower the cost of IP, the more revenge casts you'll get, and therefore more chances to reset shield slam. (Assuming you are near capping on rage and so you "need to" cast something, a max IP costs 59 for the vengeance rotation, and gives 1 chance to reset devastate. On the opposite end, a 13 rage IP costs 25 rage for the whole rotation, so you get 1/3 of the shielding but slightly over twice as many revenges).

[Arker42]

@Arker42 What do you mean 'an emergency situation'?

The only time you ever cast Ignore Pain is if you 1) will cap rage if you don't, 2) have a proc that makes it bigger that will go away before you would otherwise cast it, or 3) if you will die if you don't.

There is no reason to cast Ignore Pain at any other time, without a free revenge, because you're just wasting rage on revenge.

Now, if you're generating a lot of rage, you're going to be casting a lot of Ignore Pains, because otherwise you'd cap rage. And you can plan in advance for that - if you know you're, say, on 80 rage now and you're going to generate 150 rage over the next 5 seconds then of course you're going to start spending ASAP. And if you're, say, on 30 rage, and you know that that's going to happen shortly, then you plan for that too.

Perhaps I could word it so that you understand better, but my guide is not incorrect, you merely do not understand what "having to cast Ignore Pain" means.

Why would you cast Ignore Pain in any situation other than the above descriptions? Except perhaps if you had like, a gigantic str/vers/mast proc or something, but realistically that's not going to be important

Let me get this straight. You think Ignore Pain should NEVER be used, unless you a) you will Rage cap, b) you have Dragon Scales up, or c) you are in immediate danger of dying?

That makes absolutely no sense at all and completely wastes the Vengeance talent. With Vengeance, you should be nigh constantly alternating use of Ignore Pain and FR/Revenge while ensuring you pool sufficient Rage to have a chunky IP up for spike events. If at any time you cast either FR/Revenge or Ignore Pain twice in a row, you have completely wasted Rage and 'screwed up' your Vengeance rotation. Additionally, you will frequently need to force yourself through the Vengeance cycle to capitalize on Ultimatum or free Revenge procs. In the case of an Ultimatum proc, you do NOT want to use Shield Slam again until you have cycled back to Vengeance: FR and consumed the free proc as using SS risks wasting an Ultimatum proc if Ultimatum is still up. In contrast, if a free Revenge procs, you will want to use Shield Slam prior to using the free Revenge. In both cases, proper cycling will often require you to use Ignore Pain to enter Vengeance: Revenge/FR prior to consuming either your Ultimatum/free-Revenge proc, even if you do not meet the conditions you mentioned previously.

In the live version, the reward for perfectly Vengeance weaving (i.e., always casting Ignore Pain at 39+ Rage or for free, and alternating each cast with FR) is an effective free use of Focused Rage and one additional Rage per cycle. With the updated Revenge and Devastator build, however, the payoff is considerably higher due Revenge having the chance to reset SS. By incorporating Revenge into your standard Vengeance cycle like you did with Focused Rage before, you gain additional opportunities to reset Shield Slam, and it also puts Revenge on CD allowing you to benefit further from Revenge resets.

So, no. What you have said here in this thread in addition to what is currently suggested in your guide is not optimal.

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Question about the devastator rotation, which I believe was asked earlier, but the reasoning was not clearly explained. Do we know what rage is best for survivability in terms of casting ignore pain, if you are sitting near capped rage? While a max cost ignore pain obviously gets the most out of the vengeance talent, the lower the cost of IP, the more revenge casts you'll get, and therefore more chances to reset shield slam. (Assuming you are near capping on rage and so you "need to" cast something, a max IP costs 59 for the vengeance rotation, and gives 1 chance to reset devastate. On the opposite end, a 13 rage IP costs 25 rage for the whole rotation, so you get 1/3 of the shielding but slightly over twice as many revenges).

Once you've begun your Vengeance cycle, Ignore Pain should only ever be used at max Rage (39) with Vengeance: Ignore Pain up. Note that, as always, you should use IP if it would save your life, regardless of circumstance.

As for the place of Revenge in your Vengeance rotation, you are exactly right. Properly incorporating Revenge into your standard rotation yields more frequent Shield Slams, higher net Rage, more damage, and further extends Shield Block via HR. Failure to do so is a dramatic loss to both damage and survivability.

With Devastator, your rotation should be as follows*:

1. Revenge if**

a. You have to cast Ignore Pain (i.e. either you will rage cap, or you will die if you do not) and
b. You do not have Vengeance: Ignore Pain up

2. Shield Slam
3. Revenge if

a. You have Vengeance: Revenge up, or
b. You have Vengeance: Ignore Pain up and >58 Rage. In this case, cast Ignore Pain, immediately followed by Revenge.

4. Thunder Clap***


*This rotation assumes you are using both the Devastator and Vengeance talents, not using Legendaries that may potentially change your rotation (e.g., Thundergod's Vigor), and against are facing a single target.

**Priority 1 is purely for extreme situations (i.e., situations in which you will Rage cap, or you will die). Outside of those situations, Shield Slam receives the highest priority and should be used before executing any other attack.

***Unclear whether Priority 3 or 4 should be swapped. Sims should determine that once they are available. For now, however, my guess is that placing Revenge at a higher priority than Thunder Clap allows you to capitalize on more Revenge resets, thereby increasing the number of opportunities you have to reset SS per minute. Doing it this way likely increases both your Rage generation in addition to extending Shield Block duration if you have HR selected.

[Glurak]

hi i have the Hands // Sephuz // neck // Wrists and Breast legendary which one would you use and WHY ? x)


and which trinkets would you use when you have all at the same ilvl to choose. (i have 13 Tank Trinkets with ilvl 870-885) but im unable to choose which one are better. And yes i have the Archano Crystal.

[Deleted]

hi i have the Hands // Sephuz // neck // Wrists and Breast legendary which one would you use and WHY ? x)


and which trinkets would you use when you have all at the same ilvl to choose. (i have 13 Tank Trinkets with ilvl 870-885) but im unable to choose which one are better. And yes i have the Archano Crystal.

It really depends, is it for raiding or M+? In any case I'd use the gloves and then depending on what you're doing. Sephuz for M+ and wrists probably for raiding (wrists are good in M+ too if you need the healing). The chest is awful, don't even bother using that and the neck is not that great currently on live.

I currently have gloves / chest / belt and sephuz to my disposal, I'll be most likely using gloves + belt/sephuz for M+. If I do use the belt I'll be running Booming Voice.

[raynesque]

Just my two cents on the whole when-to-cast IP issue,

It seems that a lot of Prot Warriors are still stuck in the mindset of IP at Legion launch, where optimal Vengeance weaving was done immediately at the 20/39 rage mark, just because IP pretty much ran on them a 100% of the time.

For lower level content this still holds true, but for content that you undergear, or high mythic+ and mythic raiding, boss melee alone will eat away any IP in a single swing.

This is fine and all for mitigating the most you can mitigate at that single moment in time, but causes problems when mechanics dish out the hardest hits. Often enough, if you simply weave constantly, you won't have that full IP ready for either predictable mechanics or unforeseeable emergencies.

A good example would be Flashing Fangs on Guarm. If you don't stagger your IP usage a bit and let it get eaten up by the Boss' melee, your healers are going to have a heart-attack when your health suddenly drops 90%, simply because your constant weaving didn't line up with Guarm's cast.

After pure survivability, you job should be about smoothing your damage intake. And after that you can start thinking about doing more dps.

Now with high level contents, using devastator, your rage gain from active abilities and RFDT is going to be so huge, that you will cap often, meaning that you'll be casting Revenge (non-free) a lot to start with anyway.

And that's ignoring the fact that free Revenges seem more likely to happen than Ultimatum procs now on live. Our rage gain and efficiency under Devastator feels insane.

[Deleted]

The Devestator Guide is awesome, I hope the Weakaura will work properly, it would make things way easier.

I've read alot of pages in this thread haven't found any information on stat priority with devestator in 7.1.5. Are there any information about this one? Would be awesome, as I'd like to prepare gear for Nighthold.

[Voyle]

When in an aoe scenario trying to maximize damage, is it still worth waiting for the swing timer / global cooldown to de-allign? Id think regardless of procs I want to cast revenge / shield slam / revenge / thunderclap(or shieldslam) / revenge etc.

I do realize this is a rage loss / survivability loss.

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Oh also, does anyone have a revenge weakaura that will work in 7.1.5? I heard that tracking parries / dodges was not enough for some rapid reset scenarios.

[Arker42]

A good example would be Flashing Fangs on Guarm. If you don't stagger your IP usage a bit and let it get eaten up by the Boss' melee, your healers are going to have a heart-attack when your health suddenly drops 90%, simply because your constant weaving didn't line up with Guarm's cast.

After pure survivability, you job should be about smoothing your damage intake. And after that you can start thinking about doing more dps. Now with high level contents, using devastator, your rage gain from active abilities and RFDT is going to be so huge, that you will cap often, meaning that you'll be casting Revenge (non-free) a lot to start with anyway.

Well summarized. We both agree that you will want to pool extra Rage to cast a sizable IP prior to high damage events (Flashing Fangs, Odyn's Spear, etc.). That should always be done, whether or not you spec Vengeance or any other Talent. Outside of that, efficient weaving should be done as much as you can whilst ensuring you have sufficient resources available to manage spike events to be at peak performance.

Currently on live, the payoff for perfect Vengeance weaving is a free Focused Rage and 1 Rage per 60 Rage cycle. This is an appreciable increase to damage (especially if sync'd with Shield Block); however, it can be largely ignored without loss of survivability. With Devastator, however, the returns of proper Vengeance weaving become much higher, both offensively and defensively.

As you note, Devastator cranks out some ABSURD amounts of Rage! Without frequently spending Rage on Revenge, you will Rage cap very, very fast. Delaying Revenge also results in fewer opportunities to Shield Slam per minute, which lowers total Rage gen, damage, and the ability to extend Shield Block. Given the sheer volume of Rage you have at your disposal and the new role it fills in resetting Shield Slam, you should be incorporating Revenge use into your standard rotation (which is what I believe you are also suggesting here).

And that's ignoring the fact that free Revenges seem more likely to happen than Ultimatum procs now on live. Our rage gain and efficiency under Devastator feels insane.

Totally. And, unlike Ultimatum, those free Revenge procs weren't trackable last time I checked on the PTR. Hopefully this will be fixed.

[Ballharder]

Macro/Marok

What are the chances that we can push the WA even further into a "tell me when" type of functionality? Obviously we can't account for every situation in 1 button, but for the most part we have a pretty simple priority. For example in terms of "highest to lowest" as far as what shows: it shows Shield Slam if Shield Slam is off CD, because we obviously want to press that. If SS is on CD and we're waiting for an Auto, it shows red. If we have TClap, it shows TClap. If we have FR: Revenge, it shows Revenge.

[Arker42]

When in an aoe scenario trying to maximize damage, is it still worth waiting for the swing timer / global cooldown to de-allign? Id think regardless of procs I want to cast revenge / shield slam / revenge / thunderclap(or shieldslam) / revenge etc.

I do realize this is a rage loss / survivability loss.

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Oh also, does anyone have a revenge weakaura that will work in 7.1.5? I heard that tracking parries / dodges was not enough for some rapid reset scenarios.

Although Revenge hits like a Mack Truck, using it before Shield Slam risks missing out on an extra SS. In cleave situations, the rotation I suggested is probably still better for both DPS and survivability. If the number of targets is sufficiently high (say 4+), using Revenge over SS starts to make a bit more sense if you are trying to maximize AE dps if you aren't worried about a survivability loss. I'd still recommend sticking with the standard priority I suggested earlier in most cases.

[Lysozyme]

Yes you should only cast ignore pain in the above scenarios. That is pretty analogous to when you cast it on live. You can find a guide on how to do it properly on live here:

https://goo.gl/QGmwHQ

[potis]

Reached 202 pages and the discussion is how to make a guide to make the bad warriors play the class better.

Basically what Arker has been saying for 2 pages now and Raynesque posts sum it up quite well.

If you still cant decide when to Vengeance weave and when to pool Rage, time to reroll Guardian and button mass.

So, after not checking this for a few pages and waiting for PTR changes you decided that:

Devastator = Vengeance weave at free will cause too much rage, and Indomitable is the same use your brain and try to pool some rage for the bigger attacks?

Well go figure, irrelevant changes.

[Marok]

@Arker42 You simply don't understand what the guide is saying. Perhaps it could be a bit more clear, but it's definitely not "wrong". You will always rotate Vengeance properly (casting Revenge before IP and vice versa, unless you need to cast IP for survivabilty purposes), and the guide states this. You don't lose non-free Revenge casts by delaying it. If you pool 120 rage, that's 4 Revenge casts. If you instead use Revenge as soon as you can over 120 total rage, that's still 4 Revenge casts. 4 Revenge casts, 4 chances to reset Shield Slam. As for free Revenges, you will cast those immediately (after SS and TClap), which again, the guide states. You're under the impression that the ability priority outlined in the guide "wastes" Vengeance because you think it's telling you to cast Rev/IP twice in a row, and that's simply not the case.

You think Ignore Pain should NEVER be used, unless you a) you will Rage cap, b) you have Dragon Scales up, or c) you are in immediate danger of dying?

You think this is far more limiting than it actually is. This is how Ignore Pain is used if you're playing properly. You will always be able to rotate Vengeance by following those restrictions.

Also, TClap before Revenge is most likely better. By delaying TClap you lower your overall rage total, and your chance to not overwrite a free Revenge is much higher than your chance to overwrite. In other words, more often than not you won't waste Revenge/lower your overall Revenge casts by using TClap first. However, like we've all said, we'll need sims to confirm this.

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Macro/Marok

What are the chances that we can push the WA even further into a "tell me when" type of functionality? Obviously we can't account for every situation in 1 button, but for the most part we have a pretty simple priority. For example in terms of "highest to lowest" as far as what shows: it shows Shield Slam if Shield Slam is off CD, because we obviously want to press that. If SS is on CD and we're waiting for an Auto, it shows red. If we have TClap, it shows TClap. If we have FR: Revenge, it shows Revenge.

There aren't any plans to add something like that to the WeakAura, sorry.

[Arker42]

Yes you should only cast ignore pain in the above scenarios. That is pretty analogous to when you cast it on live. You can find a guide on how to do it properly on live here:

https://goo.gl/QGmwHQ

Sal's guide is solid and consistent with what I've been saying regarding IP/FR use -- Weaving while capitalizing on Ultimatum procs and ensuring you have a significant IP available for when substantial damage is incoming.

Perhaps there is a disconnect somewhere in the conversation, Lyso, and we more closely agree than we think in regards to the Warrior rotation on live servers.

As for Devastator, I still do not think people realize how much Devastator changes the pacing and priority of our rotation and how critically important it is to consistently weave Revenge into our rotation to maximize the number of Shield Slams. If the ability rotation in your guide is followed as written, people will be missing out on a substantial number of Revenge opportunities as they wait for either the conditions in Priority 1 (i.e., to prevent Rage cap, death, or DS dropping) or Priority 4 (free Revenge proc).

I've tested Devastator out on the PTR quite a bit and have found that Devastator really is NOT a simple talent, nor is it boring. It is fast paced with frequent use of Shield Slams, high damage output, massive Rage gen, and massively benefits Heavy Repercussions -- Provided you capitalize on both as many uses of Revenge as possible and Vengeance.

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You think this is far more limiting than it actually is. This is how Ignore Pain is used if you're playing properly. You will always be able to rotate Vengeance by following those restrictions.

I think we are in agreement for how IP/Vengeance/FR should be used on live servers.

As for your guide on Devastator, I think it's fantastic. It's very well thought out and explained. That being said, there is something wonky with the Ability Rotation suggested in the guide. As written, it simply leaves no room for using Revenge outside of free procs or emergencies. Without frequently using Revenge outside of those situations, you are gonna miss out on a ton of extra Shield Slams, damage, Rage, and survivability via HR.

[Lysozyme]

I think the 'disconnect' is that you think that where I've written 'use ignore pain if you will die otherwise', you think I mean something like 'use it if the next attack will kill you if you don't ignore pain'. That's not what I meant at all, but I appreciate that it's not especially clear and I'll think about how to revise the wording on it.

[McJiggles]

Does FR still exist in the current iteration of 7.1.5 and if so is there a time when it would be useful to use.
Is it no longer tied/synergized with any of our skills? If not, is it now purely a rage dump/dps boost ala Heroic Strike?
If revenge is on a 3 sec CD and is now our vengeance weaving buddy, is there any reason when we would use FR when we could just revenge/IP to dump?

Thanks!