Soaring childlessness among southern European women

[P for Pancetta]

What we need more than ever, is for selfish people like Tennisace to give poor people in poor countries the change to build up their own countries and futures instead of stealing those that could from their nations with racists immigration politics like those in place in Canada. These poor immigrant countries do not have an endless supply of people, and just like here in the west, the amount of newborn children are dropping.

Who do you think you are trying to force this deluded and totally insane neo-colonial propaganda on this website day after day.

I often read about pro-russian shitposters and trolls, that get paid for spreading lies and misinformation and can't help but wonder if Tennisace is also some kind of paid troll. Because the person behind the account is clearly not an idiot, while at the same time you act extremely obtuse, naive and uncomprehending when faced with even the most basest of concepts that you do not agree with.

[Theodarzna]

Immigrants also age.... as a fun fact.

Your country becomes a bottomless pit with which you must forever hoover bodies into. Why not solve the child problem first?

[Theinquisition]

No, it's nothing to do with nature. Economics, access to contraception, religion and cultural factors are what is behind low or high birth rates.

I think it's primarily economic, but the cultural breakdown of the nuclear family isn't helping

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Too many people in the world anyways, who cares.

Maybe in the third world

[starlord]

local news here just ran a story on how it costs about $200,000 (total) to raise a single child.
i suppose europe may be in a similar situation.

[A dot Ham]

Per BBC



With a growing elderly population, it's pretty clear that these governments need to rely on immigration otherwise their entire social systems will collapse.

At the end of the day it's the choice of these women not to have children so it is what it is.

Which is why Germany was so willing to accept Syrian refugees initially. Unfortunately the potential economic benefits have been overshadowed by the negative social impact housing the refugees has created. Hence the border closing.

[Blade Wolf]

Per BBC



With a growing elderly population, it's pretty clear that these governments need to rely on immigration otherwise their entire social systems will collapse.

At the end of the day it's the choice of these women not to have children so it is what it is.

Your own fucking text states a solution and it isn't immigration... 1+1=11 apparently.

[Deleted]

Subtle.

You also could have just changed title to ''I support policies that will lead Southern Europe becoming less and less European, it will become merely an extension of Africa and Middle East. RIP, once grand civilization.''

You know, for the sake of honesty.

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Your own fucking text states a solution and it isn't immigration... 1+1=11 apparently.

It's a subtle...

[Deleted]

Subtle.

You also could have just changed title to ''Southern Europe will seize to be European, it will become merely an extension of Africa and Middle East. RIP, once grand civilization.''

You know, for the sake of honesty.

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It's a subtle...

You are as wrong as Tennisace. Southern Europe countries are already very diverse because of the long muslim occupation (except Italy) and their former colonial empires.

The problem is purely economics.

[the game]

I love that there isn't even a link to the article.

[serenka]

Your own fucking text states a solution and it isn't immigration... 1+1=11 apparently.

I really don't know why people continue to respond to tennisace, everything he posts he just tries to twist into a immigration will solve all the problems sort of thing, imo he only posts to try and rile the forum up, as he gets the same responses every time.

[Miow]

We don't need more humans. It'd almost be a shame to put a child into the condition that the world is currently in.
Poor child, will be having a rough future. Most likely with war.

[God Save The King]

I read a book that touched on this topic briefly. I may not remember every detail clearly but it made sense to me and seems reasonably correct.

• People are finding ways to become satisfied and fulfilled in their lives without reproducing.
• Sex is not the only engaging, fun thing to do. Plenty of people find other avenues of entertainment more enjoyable than sex.
• It is economically challenging to afford a child, and potential parents realize they will have to give up a lot to support them.
• Children have a bad connotation in our society - they're dirty, messy, smelly, bad, gross, etc
• Adults see very little immediate value from raising a child.
• The idea of the nuclear family or stay at home parent is falling apart
• Children actively impede things you may want to do, from something as simple as shopping or entertaining to big life goals like traveling or moving to a foreign country

Edit remembered two more points:

• Contraception allows for both married and casual sex to greatly reduce the odds of reproduction
• Marriage rates are declining while divorce rates are rising.

[Deleted]

You are as wrong as Tennisace. Southern Europe countries are already very diverse because of the long muslim occupation (except Italy) and their former colonial empires.

The problem is purely economics.

I know that. Thing is that up until late 20th century, there was an opposition to that and a very strong sense of the national.
Now that has gone. And Tennispro supports policies that would be as damaging to all that cultures, identities - cultures and identities that are very unique and worth protecting - as Ottoman and other Empires were.

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The problem is purely economics.

As for the economics argument.

https://geopoliticalfutures.com/will...aphic-problem/

Problem isn't ''we need X amount of people to sustain YXZ.'' It's ''how can we make future humans more productive.''
Just because population is declining, doesn't mean that the industrial base is evaporating. See Europe of post-WW2. Even with all the damage that was done to European industrial capability, it was restored despite significant population losses from Iberia to Siberia.

The Effects of Population on GDP

But the real question is whether a declining population matters. Assume that there is a smooth downward curve of population, with it decreasing by 20 percent. If the downward curve in gross domestic product matched the downward curve in population, per capita GDP would be unchanged. By this simplest measure, the only way there would be a problem is if GDP fell more than population, or fell completely out of sync with the population, creating negative and positive bubbles. That would be destabilizing.

But there is no reason to think that GDP would fall along with population. The capital base of society, its productive plant as broadly understood, will not dissolve as population declines. Moreover, assume that population fell but GDP fell less — or even grew. Per capita GDP would rise and, by that measure, the population would be more prosperous than before.

One of the key variables mitigating the problem of decreasing population would be continuing advances in technology to increase productivity. We can call this automation or robotics, but growths in individual working productivity have been occurring in all productive environments from the beginning of industrialization, and the rate of growth has been intensifying. Given the smooth and predictable decline in population, there is no reason to believe, at the very least, that GDP would not fall less than population. In other words, with a declining population in advanced industrial societies, even leaving immigration out as a factor, per capita GDP would be expected to grow.

- https://www.stratfor.com/weekly/popu...nomic-reversal

[Deleted]

I know that. Thing is that up until late 20th century, there was an opposition to that and a very strong sense of the national.
Now that has gone. And Tennispro supports policies that would be as damaging to all that cultures, identities - cultures and identities that are very unique and worth protecting - as Ottoman and other Empires were.

Not in Iberia though.

[noidentity]

I love that there isn't even a link to the article.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38582100

here you go

[Independent voter]

As for the economics argument.
Problem isn't ''we need X amount of people to sustain YXZ.'' It's ''how can we make future humans more productive.''
Just because population is declining, doesn't mean that the industrial base is evaporating. See Europe of post-WW2. Even with all the damage that was done to European industrial capability, it was restored despite significant population losses from Iberia to Siberia.

People have always outbred wars and disease.

You need people for your market, not production as much. You can sell to other countries but you need X amount of people to form your nation's market, pay taxes, etc.

[Arewn]

Per BBC



With a growing elderly population, it's pretty clear that these governments need to rely on immigration otherwise their entire social systems will collapse.

At the end of the day it's the choice of these women not to have children so it is what it is.

Are you just unable to see things outside of your own bias?

No, they don't "need" to rely on immigration. There are solutions other then immigration. You can encourage the native population to reproduce more for one.

[Kathandira]

I read a book that touched on this topic briefly. I may not remember every detail clearly but it made sense to me and seems reasonably correct.

• People are finding ways to become satisfied and fulfilled in their lives without reproducing.
• Sex is not the only engaging, fun thing to do. Plenty of people find other avenues of entertainment more enjoyable than sex.
• It is economically challenging to afford a child, and potential parents realize they will have to give up a lot to support them.
• Children have a bad connotation in our society - they're dirty, messy, smelly, bad, gross, etc
• Adults see very little immediate value from raising a child.
• The idea of the nuclear family or stay at home parent is falling apart
• Children actively impede things you may want to do, from something as simple as shopping or entertaining to big life goals like traveling or moving to a foreign country

This fits my view of it quite well.

[tumppu]

• People are finding ways to become satisfied and fulfilled in their lives without reproducing.
• Sex is not the only engaging, fun thing to do. Plenty of people find other avenues of entertainment more enjoyable than sex.
• It is economically challenging to afford a child, and potential parents realize they will have to give up a lot to support them.
• Children have a bad connotation in our society - they're dirty, messy, smelly, bad, gross, etc
• Adults see very little immediate value from raising a child.
• The idea of the nuclear family or stay at home parent is falling apart
• Children actively impede things you may want to do, from something as simple as shopping or entertaining to big life goals like traveling or moving to a foreign country

• Contraception allows for both married and casual sex to greatly reduce the odds of reproduction
• Marriage rates are declining while divorce rates are rising.

^Just pin this to the top and you can explain all the countries with lower birth rates. No need to limit it to southern european countries.

I dare say the lesser religious influence in peoples lives also plays a significant role. It's pretty much lampshaded in several points already, though.

[I Push Buttons]

the solution can't possibly be fix the job market and enact policies that help people looking to start families, nope that would make too much sense. gotta go with importing more people.

You already get maternity leave, tax incentives, and some places even paternity leave...

What more can the government do besides give you free money forever for having a kid?

EDIT:

I say this all the time on this topic, they can only do so much before they are no longer rewarding people for having kids, they are punishing people for not having kids.