Why is Subtlety unpopular?

[Tusq]

AP Sin is crap too but people still blindly invest into it.

Elaborate please

[iky43210]

Wod sub is probably the best version of sub. I don't know why they changed it at all, the spec was perfect.

[Deleted]

Necroing my own thread.

Nighthold is out, and again, Subtlety barely has any parses on Warcraftlogs. Even Outlaw has way more parses uploaded. Seems like the problem is still there and the nerfs to the boots and other forms of Energy regeneration didnt help at all with the low popularity of the spec (and how good Assasination is).

Some data extracted of Warcraftlogs, on the 23rd of January.
10% percentile normal NH (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&difficulty=3) :
102.250 Assasination parses.
25.233 Outlaw parses.
9.157 Subtlety parses.

10% percentile heroic NH (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist.../#dataset=10):
42.784 Assasination parses.
7.682 Outlaw parses.
3.907 Subtlety parses.

[Coldkil]

Necroing my own thread.

Nighthold is out, and again, Subtlety barely has any parses on Warcraftlogs. Even Outlaw has way more parses uploaded. Seems like the problem is still there and the nerfs to the boots and other forms of Energy regeneration didnt help at all with the low popularity of the spec (and how good Assasination is).

Some data extracted of Warcraftlogs, on the 23rd of January.
10% percentile normal NH (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist...0&difficulty=3) :
102.250 Assasination parses.
25.233 Outlaw parses.
9.157 Subtlety parses.

10% percentile heroic NH (https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statist.../#dataset=10):
42.784 Assasination parses.
7.682 Outlaw parses.
3.907 Subtlety parses.

While i can agree with the reasoning, i just think it's most a playerbase issue:
a) Subtlety is always been tied thematically to PvP. Lots of people is still reasoning as they did in TBC.
b) Until WoD it wasn't that much represented anyway, and even in WoD being substantially more difficult without giving a big dps advantage made people drift even more away from it
c) Currently Sub isn't and has never been a FotM nor simmed high (a thing lots of people trust even more than their personall skill and experience)
d) nerfs and clunkiness don't help too.

Basically, now everyone knows that Sub doesn't perform well, had its op legendary nerfed and basically doesn't give anything more (both in performance and gameplay) compared to Assa and Outlaw, which most people is more familiar with.

[Zzaj]

While i can agree with the reasoning, i just think it's most a playerbase issue:
a) Subtlety is always been tied thematically to PvP. Lots of people is still reasoning as they did in TBC.
b) Until WoD it wasn't that much represented anyway, and even in WoD being substantially more difficult without giving a big dps advantage made people drift even more away from it
c) Currently Sub isn't and has never been a FotM nor simmed high (a thing lots of people trust even more than their personall skill and experience)
d) nerfs and clunkiness don't help too.

Basically, now everyone knows that Sub doesn't perform well, had its op legendary nerfed and basically doesn't give anything more (both in performance and gameplay) compared to Assa and Outlaw, which most people is more familiar with.

Feelcraft incoming:

For me, the dps potential is high, but if you fuck up the rotation it really shows in the output, whereas sin doesn't really have that issue, even with lowish EP uptime (before the MP/AP switch), you still did pretty good dps, and even if you didn't pool, you still did ok dps, and even if you didn't stack cd's you still did ok dps.

For sub, if you fuck up, your dps goes into the toilet and then will be left with no SD's and just stand there like an ass.

You can attribute this to lack of practice, but I feel like sub is just less intuitive and requires a little planning as you play more so than sin. Its also not clear that the risk is worth the reward as the dps gain isn't far ahead if you get everything right - like how it was in WOD where well executed sub was miles ahead of sin or combat.

[Coldkil]

like how it was in WOD where well executed sub was miles ahead of sin or combat.

With the exception that this wasn't true until buffs and later scaling. At WoD start Sub was in the same situation but everyone knew it scaled much better, plus the buffs that made it really good by the end of the xpack.

[Deleted]

I think its not because of the difficulty of sub but the playstyle of it. I figured it out and didnt find the rotation harder, but the style is pretty much annoying for me personally.

[Zzaj]

Agree 100%, its sort of worse now bc you are locked into a spec choice, so it makes it harder to swap even if "buffed" due to AK, Relics, Secondary Stats.

[Coldkil]

I think its not because of the difficulty of sub but the playstyle of it. I figured it out and didnt find the rotation harder, but the style is pretty much annoying for me personally.

Again can agree, but if Sub was any% costantly better than the other specs you would see many more parses and people playing it because most people don't care much about the playstyle but only to their position on Recount/WoL.

[elcapone]

risk not worth the reward

[Deleted]

Again can agree, but if Sub was any% costantly better than the other specs you would see many more parses and people playing it because most people don't care much about the playstyle but only to their position on Recount/WoL.

Sure, if it would be the "go to" spec by a large margin I would play it as well.

[Deleted]

Well legion made its EXTREMLY hard at top lvl spec change due to Legendarys. AP can be farmed but legendary BIS is RNG and if you get 1 or 2 good for a spec and want to change u might end up farm for month without get the BIS for other spec. Best sulution would TIER base the legendarys so you can change spec and the outlaw bracers change to assasin bracers etc depending on spec. This would make it ALOT easier to tets and mabye like other specc's

Still, I dont get a ompf feeling from the sub cd,s and the general playstyle is repulsive at best.

[Akka]

I think its not because of the difficulty of sub but the playstyle of it. I figured it out and didnt find the rotation harder, but the style is pretty much annoying for me personally.

Exactly my feelings too.
I WANT to like sub (I'm a ninja kind of guy), but I find sub gameplay annoying, and the over-emphasis on shadow magic makes me feel like a warlock and not a rogue anyway.

[Coldkil]

Exactly my feelings too.
I WANT to like sub (I'm a ninja kind of guy), but I find sub gameplay annoying, and the over-emphasis on shadow magic makes me feel like a warlock and not a rogue anyway.

I like sub exactly for the reason listed and i don't find it annoying, but it's just a personal opinion. Can get the feel why people simply don't like it.

[Leetbeartank]

Because sub and outlaw single target DPS are dependant on having a legendary... So anyone who got lucky with one of those has the freedom to play the spec they want and be competitive. Everybody else who got Prydaz and/or Sephuz's has to play assassination.

Fuck Blizzard and fuck legendaries. They ruined legion.

[RobertMugabe]

I kinda like the general idea behind sublety, but for me it seems a bit too complicated and aoe-wise it is rather bad.

For general purpose, dungeons and AOE-heavy fights i take Outlaw and other raid encounters assassination. Both have their own strengths and they are quite easy (=this mainly means that you can't fuck up too much and loose dps) to play.

[Deleted]

So why did they not make the legendarys work like tiergear. Change spec change effect, on say boots. Think more ppl would test other specen then. Mean, u invested several of your legendary drops, got say assasin boots and bracer it would be horrible to begin play sub start the grind for new legendarys who might even not drop.

Legendarys is the worst part of a fantastic expansion

[Maelstrom51]

I kinda like the general idea behind sublety, but for me it seems a bit too complicated and aoe-wise it is rather bad.

For general purpose, dungeons and AOE-heavy fights i take Outlaw and other raid encounters assassination. Both have their own strengths and they are quite easy (=this mainly means that you can't fuck up too much and loose dps) to play.

Sub AoE isn't bad at all. With the legendary cloak it's actually a very good AoE spec. It's probably our best spec for mythic+ if you have cloak and shoulders.

[RobertMugabe]

Sub AoE isn't bad at all. With the legendary cloak it's actually a very good AoE spec. It's probably our best spec for mythic+ if you have cloak and shoulders.

Probably, but then again you need these legendaries first

[cafecito820]

I can't speak for everyone, but for me, it's because Symbols of Death is absolutely stupid and not fun. Maintenance buffs in general are just uninteresting and tedious, and feel like a cheap way for Blizzard to put a tuning dial into a spec.