SV - a future look at Mongoose

[Improtaight]

Hi,

So, i'm still playing my Survival because everytime i play BM i fall asleep, and MM isnt fun for me.

I was thinking about Survival, i mean, currently i'm at 30% haste, and 25% mastery, mongoose is proccing a lot.

in the VERY near future, wouldnt it be stupid that mongoose will just proc so much, that you'll just mongoose all the time? just button smash that ability?
it is the main abilitiy of the spec, everything is revolving around mongoose fury, so - just mongoose fury, eagle here and there, and that's about it, for ST fights of course.

what are your thoughts on this? i have in my mind a million ways to solve this, but i'm surprised how Blizzard is letting this go on.
something needs to change, this spec is heading to a BM direction, 2-3 buttons kind of play...

agree?

[Khrux]

Its a valid point, as Survival is to my knowledge the only class in the game that abandons its rotational skills completely to spam a single skill.

Lets look at Trilliax mythic, highest parse for each hunter spec and the % of their total damage made up by their main skill and the next closest skill.

Survival - 31.68% Mongoose bite + 12.73% Flanking Strike
Marksman - 47.42% Aimed shot + 27.47% Marked shot
Beast Master - 31.54% Kill Command + 24.71% Dire Beast(incl.Stomp)

You can see the vast difference between Survival's low value secondary skills compared to MM/BM. While their Mongoose is of equal total value to BM's kill command and much less compared to MM's aimed shot, the value of every skill after mongoose is just so low causing this "abandon everything for mongoose" trend that is in danger of happening.

If you read any class guide on Icy veins, the rotations are mostly listed as priorities and at the end "use X when you have nothing else to do" so basically a filler. For Survival, even though its listed as a priority system also, it basically boils down to "spam mongoose, use everything else when you have no mongoose"......everything outside of mongoose is becoming close to a filler.

Last point, flanking strike is ~12% of overall damage because of the value added to it by the tier set causing it to be used on CD(where possible). Even then its only slightly more overall output than Arcane shot is for MM and less overall output than cobra shot is for BM.... rip

[Gurg]

Hi,

So, i'm still playing my Survival because everytime i play BM i fall asleep, and MM isnt fun for me.

I was thinking about Survival, i mean, currently i'm at 30% haste, and 25% mastery, mongoose is proccing a lot.

in the VERY near future, wouldnt it be stupid that mongoose will just proc so much, that you'll just mongoose all the time? just button smash that ability?
it is the main abilitiy of the spec, everything is revolving around mongoose fury, so - just mongoose fury, eagle here and there, and that's about it, for ST fights of course.

what are your thoughts on this? i have in my mind a million ways to solve this, but i'm surprised how Blizzard is letting this go on.
something needs to change, this spec is heading to a BM direction, 2-3 buttons kind of play...

agree?

Well, survival as it is currently.. it completely need a new look at it, but i do see where are you going with it.
Im built more around haste/crit with +3 Relics in "Fluffy go!" And it seems im not able to drop my stacks even before it.

Now.. i did get 2p set last night. If you think that spamming MF up to this point is crazy, i literally have the chained windows with 8MBs in it and again ready to dump new ones as soon as MF window ends. And remember, im haste/critt built with Fluffy Go!
I cant imagine how will it look when i switch to haste/mastery build.

But i do agree, Survival need a new look at for sure. Were also suffering of button bloat tbh, im not expecting 3 button rotation, but we do have far to many things that we need to align to maximize our output.

[Yhcti]

I must be the only survival hunter who never hits 6 stacks damn, now I feel bad.

[Improtaight]

I must be the only survival hunter who never hits 6 stacks damn, now I feel bad.

when i started out it pretty hard / lucky to hit 6 stacks
but when u advance, put more haste, even get some mastery (which exists on lots of gear nowadays), then you cant avoid it.
hitting 6 will be close to 100%, 8 is pretty easy + with eagle

[DeicideUH]

I must be the only survival hunter who never hits 6 stacks damn, now I feel bad.

It's weird that I get 6 stacks lots of times, specially in raids/dungeons, but RNG curses me to never get them when I really need it, like when the boss in Brawler's Guild is about to die but time is running out....

(I also need more Haste. Damn, it's my second-lowest stat (only Versatility is worse). Haste gear never seems to drop for me)

[Khrux]

Animal instincts can help with lower geared or badly optimised stats, if your struggling to reliably get 6 stacks. I only play survival for daily things and our alts runs just to mix things up so my gear is heavy mastery/crit(BM) and lowish haste. So I run animal instincts and have no issues with mongoose stacks, its lower dps than WotM but its both easier to play and helps until your better geared for the spec.

[Yhcti]

Fair enough thanks guys I'll give it a whirl, started to get a little bored of the spec due to the loss of stack but I'll keep gearing.

[Guran]

Its a valid point, as Survival is to my knowledge the only class in the game that abandons its rotational skills completely to spam a single skill.

Lets look at Trilliax mythic, highest parse for each hunter spec and the % of their total damage made up by their main skill and the next closest skill.

Survival - 31.68% Mongoose bite + 12.73% Flanking Strike
Marksman - 47.42% Aimed shot + 27.47% Marked shot
Beast Master - 31.54% Kill Command + 24.71% Dire Beast(incl.Stomp)

You can see the vast difference between Survival's low value secondary skills compared to MM/BM. While their Mongoose is of equal total value to BM's kill command and much less compared to MM's aimed shot, the value of every skill after mongoose is just so low causing this "abandon everything for mongoose" trend that is in danger of happening.

If you read any class guide on Icy veins, the rotations are mostly listed as priorities and at the end "use X when you have nothing else to do" so basically a filler. For Survival, even though its listed as a priority system also, it basically boils down to "spam mongoose, use everything else when you have no mongoose"......everything outside of mongoose is becoming close to a filler.

Last point, flanking strike is ~12% of overall damage because of the value added to it by the tier set causing it to be used on CD(where possible). Even then its only slightly more overall output than Arcane shot is for MM and less overall output than cobra shot is for BM.... rip

Just a question, but is that highest Surv parse with WotM or AI? Is pet damaga added correctly? How are the artifact abilities adding to this?
While I don't run Mythic, my Hunter is my #1 alt and I've found that AI basicly means I can ignore Raptor Strike and gives me more Mongoose charges, which should be negatingthe loss of AP from WotM.

If I look at the top AI log, I see these stats:
Mongoose+FotE: 38.91%
Flanking Strike: 14.50%
That's a total of 53.41% of damage from the 'main' CD/rotation
The highest BM log I found is currently 48.54% KC (including Hati) and 13.51% Dire Beast. (62.05% of total damage)
The highest MM log has over 68% Aimed and just under 10% Marked. (77.70% of total)

So I'ld say logs, especially the top ones might be filled with RNG procs and perhaps even some padding.
But overall, Survival does have some extra damage sources that are just there. Lacerate for me is the main culprit, as it does nothing but be a more/too efficient focus dump. You basicly only ever use it in between Mongoose windows, because it's better than Raptor, just like Explosive/Caltrop & Murder, nothing of what those abilities do actually matters for your rotation.

[Khrux]

I have 4pc so I'm using AI and completely removed Raptor from my bars. I'm actually struggling to find windows to apply/maintain the dots as I'm swimming in Mongoose charges at all times.

With 2pc and around 15-20% mastery you've basically a 100% chance to get a proc off flanking combined with the normal proc chance from pet attacks, a nice chunk of haste(25% atm) I just can't do anything but spam mongoose at all times. As I don't have the Survival belt(or any Surv legendary) the rotation for me should be apply all dots then start mongoose spam, but once the dots fall off I find it very hard to stop spamming mongoose to reapply them.

The 4pc only further enforces this behaviour, as your getting 20% increased dmg everytime you hit 6 charges so you want to be constantly getting 6 charges regardless of the CD on fury of the eagle. Using GCDs to apply lacerate, traps, way of the mok etc. feels so bad when your looking at 1-2 charges of mongoose taunting you

[Guran]

Wouldn't you just re-apply Lacerate after a Mongoose window and then restart the buildup?
As long as you're not on 3 full stacks, surely you could afford the extra 1.5s to apply Lacerate/Explosive Trap?

[Khrux]

Initially I was using Serpent String in tier6 as its the optimal single target talent, so I had to use raptor at least once per 15secs or less. So I thought I can line this up with lacerate and use them both about every 12secs(lacerates duration) and would only be apply raptor a little early(but still in pandemic so all good). Then explosive is on a 24sec CD with a 10sec duration so only needs to be used on CD as 100% uptime isn't possible. So to simplify, 2 skills every 12secs and 3 every 24sec.

This gave me a pattern of:
1. Apply raptor/lacerate/explosive together at the start of the fight
2. Refresh raptor/lacerate together ~12secs later
3. Refresh raptor/lacerate/explosive together ~12secs later
4. Refresh raptor/lacerate together ~ 12 secs later
5. Refresh raptor/lacerate/explosive together ~12secs later
6. Rinse repeat forever

The only issue I had was at times the mongoose procs are so high I have to choose between ignoring charges in favour of reapplying dots when the 12sec windows come up or keep spamming mongoose to either get to 6 stacks for 4pc/EaglesFury or spam high stack mongooses when im already at 6 stacks for dps. There's just no "downtime" where I can apply dots because there isn't anything else to do...

This is becoming a problem, when does just ignoring the dots punish you or does it at all if you can sustain back to back mongoose windows with no downtime?

So at this point, considering I only play Survival for alt runs or other non-important content, I dropped serpent sting for Butchery, i already wasn't using Caltrops or Crows and my "rotation" now is use flanking on CD and just spam mongoose endlessly with a lacerate dropped in if I ever have a window without a mongoose to use. Just doesn't feel like how the spec should play.

[DeicideUH]

Initially I was using Serpent String in tier6 as its the optimal single target talent, so I had to use raptor at least once per 15secs or less. So I thought I can line this up with lacerate and use them both about every 12secs(lacerates duration) and would only be apply raptor a little early(but still in pandemic so all good). Then explosive is on a 24sec CD with a 10sec duration so only needs to be used on CD as 100% uptime isn't possible. So to simplify, 2 skills every 12secs and 3 every 24sec.

This gave me a pattern of:
1. Apply raptor/lacerate/explosive together at the start of the fight
2. Refresh raptor/lacerate together ~12secs later
3. Refresh raptor/lacerate/explosive together ~12secs later
4. Refresh raptor/lacerate together ~ 12 secs later
5. Refresh raptor/lacerate/explosive together ~12secs later
6. Rinse repeat forever

The only issue I had was at times the mongoose procs are so high I have to choose between ignoring charges in favour of reapplying dots when the 12sec windows come up or keep spamming mongoose to either get to 6 stacks for 4pc/EaglesFury or spam high stack mongooses when im already at 6 stacks for dps. There's just no "downtime" where I can apply dots because there isn't anything else to do...

This is becoming a problem, when does just ignoring the dots punish you or does it at all if you can sustain back to back mongoose windows with no downtime?

So at this point, considering I only play Survival for alt runs or other non-important content, I dropped serpent sting for Butchery, i already wasn't using Caltrops or Crows and my "rotation" now is use flanking on CD and just spam mongoose endlessly with a lacerate dropped in if I ever have a window without a mongoose to use. Just doesn't feel like how the spec should play.

I just ignore the DoTs when I'm under Mongoose Fury and have Bite charges available. The damage that MB will do far exceeds the DoTs under that same period. I reapply the DoTs only when I have no charges or if Mongoose Fury ends.

[Khrux]

Yeah that seems to be the optimal way to play at the moment, not sure how they can really "fix" that playstyle. Even if they increased the efficiency of dots it wouldn't really make them more attractive to use over mongoose when the latter has no resource cost. I guess the only change to break this would be to reduce the number of mongoose charges, increase the strength of dots, reduce mongoose damage per stack of fury, increase the flanking strike CD and reduces its cost or some combination of all of this.

Either way, it feels weird to have so many active skills that are just "use when you have no mongoose".

[Deleted]

If I were blizzard, I'd have tried a different approach to Mongoose Fury.

Even though I'm not a fan of "maintenance-buffs"
I'd probably build mastery around it, reduce the stacksize to ~3 or something, make it so that it increases the damage other skills deal (mastery will increase the amount of +% damage). This means you'll want to have 3 stacks at all times, but you are urged to use the other skills once you get there.

In contradiction to "use Mongoose Bite... always".
What really bothers me is that you have to use MB to even get to the point where you *really* want to use it.
Like, I'm smashing that shit 6 times, but that's only the beginning because NOW I really want to smash it even more.
It's retarded imho.

[bjlight1988]

Seems to me that with 4p, you'd just want to apply DoTs pre-spam, and then quickly re-apply post spam with the damage buff up. Once we have the ridiculous amounts of charges that come with 2p, I'd say 100% DoT uptime isn't going to be nearly as important as just spamming the everloving shit out of Mongoose Bite.

[Derian]

Most of your dot skills are still higher DPET than mongoose bite, going by simcraft results; even azor's guide has the priority as:

1: Cast Fury of the Eagle as often as possible when you have 6 stacks of Mongoose Fury Icon Mongoose Fury.
2: Cast Spitting Cobra and A Murder of Crows on cooldown.
3: Cast Raptor Strike just enough to keep Way of the Mok'Nathal active on 4 stacks, refreshing as late as possible and keeping the global cooldown in mind.
4: Cast Explosive Trap
5: Cast Caltrops - should be cast just often enough to maintain the DoT it applies, similarly to Lacerate.
6: Cast Lacerate and maintain the debuff.
7: Cast Mongoose Bite until you have 0 charges left, when it is about to reach 3 charges, and provided that Aspect of the Eagle is not coming off cooldown shortly.
8: Cast Mongoose Bite if Mongoose Fury is active or when it reaches 3 charges. We strongly recommend reading below to fully understand the best usage.
9: Cast Throwing Axes when there is nothing else to do.
10: Cast Flanking Strike when there is nothing else to do.
11: Cast Raptor Strike to dump excess Focus and when there is nothing else to do.

I'm not entirely sure where you guys are getting the idea that you're supposed to spam mongoose before anything else.

[Myzou]

Most of your dot skills are still higher DPET than mongoose bite, going by simcraft results; even azor's guide has the priority as:

1: Cast Fury of the Eagle as often as possible when you have 6 stacks of Mongoose Fury Icon Mongoose Fury.
2: Cast Spitting Cobra and A Murder of Crows on cooldown.
3: Cast Raptor Strike just enough to keep Way of the Mok'Nathal active on 4 stacks, refreshing as late as possible and keeping the global cooldown in mind.
4: Cast Explosive Trap
5: Cast Caltrops - should be cast just often enough to maintain the DoT it applies, similarly to Lacerate.
6: Cast Lacerate and maintain the debuff.
7: Cast Mongoose Bite until you have 0 charges left, when it is about to reach 3 charges, and provided that Aspect of the Eagle is not coming off cooldown shortly.
8: Cast Mongoose Bite if Mongoose Fury is active or when it reaches 3 charges. We strongly recommend reading below to fully understand the best usage.
9: Cast Throwing Axes when there is nothing else to do.
10: Cast Flanking Strike when there is nothing else to do.
11: Cast Raptor Strike to dump excess Focus and when there is nothing else to do.

I'm not entirely sure where you guys are getting the idea that you're supposed to spam mongoose before anything else.

Because you completely ignored his Mongoose Bite section.

Your playstyle as a Survival Hunter consists of using the correct abilities on cooldown, and maximizing the benefit you get out of Mongoose Bite Icon Mongoose Bites without wasting them. You achieve this by making each of your Mongoose Fury Icon Mongoose Fury windows reach as many stacks as possible, but you must ensure that you have 3 charges of Mongoose Bite ready to go when your cooldowns come up. When you pop cooldowns such as the Snake Hunter Icon Snake Hunter talent and Aspect of the Eagle Icon Aspect of the Eagle, you spend all of you charges. This ensures that the bulk of your high-stack Mongoose Bites are done under the effects of damage buffs. It also makes it easier to always end up at 6 stacks of Mongoose Fury when Icon Fury of the Eagle comes off cooldown.

Generally, when Mongoose Bite Icon Mongoose Bite reaches 3 charges and Mongoose Fury Icon Mongoose Fury is down, you should spend all 3 charges and then proceed with your normal rotation, but use Mongoose Bite as much as possible instead of waiting for it to reach 3 charges to build your Mongoose Fury Icon Mongoose Fury to as many stacks as possible before it expires. When it expires, proceed with the rotation as normal until Mongoose Bite Icon Mongoose Bite reaches 3 charges again, or your cooldowns come back up.

Yes, it says use the rotation normally, but with AotE up, you will pretty much -always- have Mongoose Bite ready, and at 5-6 stacks, Mongoose Bite is much more important than any rotational ability.

Without AotE, it's rare to find yourself with Mongoose Bite charges reliably, so that's why you do the normal rotation. When you have 3+ stacks of Fury, Mongoose Bite becomes priority in your rotation.

[Khrux]

I don't use Azor's guide on Survival, I use this google doc made by actual Survival mains who've used the spec in practice in end game content.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...sBX6U/pubhtml#

[DeicideUH]

Yeah that seems to be the optimal way to play at the moment, not sure how they can really "fix" that playstyle. Even if they increased the efficiency of dots it wouldn't really make them more attractive to use over mongoose when the latter has no resource cost. I guess the only change to break this would be to reduce the number of mongoose charges, increase the strength of dots, reduce mongoose damage per stack of fury, increase the flanking strike CD and reduces its cost or some combination of all of this.

Either way, it feels weird to have so many active skills that are just "use when you have no mongoose".

I'd like to see them give a look at the Mortal Wounds talent. Right now its benefit is pretty much insignificant. They could use it to increase priority of Lacerate or make Lacerate easier to maintain.

In addition to its current benefit (2% MB charge every time Lacerate ticks), I'd like to see any one of the following effects be implemented:
- Mongoose Bite increases Lacerate's duration on target by 2 seconds.
- Applying Lacerate gives you a Mongoose Bite charge
- Lacerate focus cost is reduced by 5 or 10 (not sure which would be enough)

The 1st one is just a QoL change; The second and third could potentially make Lacerate worthwhile to cast during Mongoose Fury. The third one would also make off-MF phase rotation smoothier.