Thoughts on Tanking and Blood going into Legion (LONG)

[Barael]

Botanist is fine for me. I hate to sound rude by saying this, but to be completely honest with you, you're playing BDK somewhat poorly.

• You're using Marrowrend at 9 and 10 stacks at some points during your kill
  
• You're letting Bone Shield fall off during periods of high damage
• You have a 77% uptime on Ossuary
• You used Vampiric Blood 4 times in a 6:21 fight (I used it 7 times during a 4:55 fight)
• You had a Sac available when you died
• You're overlapping your CDs, which means you won't have any CDs when you need them

Sheesh, I wasn't really asking for a Struggle Session here. Clearly the Botanist kill wasn't my finest hour and just playing better would've solved most of the issues, but I feel like there's quite a bit of generalization going on here (such as Bone Shield dropping which happened exactly once). Marrowrending at high stacks comes up from time to time since 7.1.5 to prevent it from falling off completely and as for Vampiric Blood I don't quite see the point unless you're implying it should be used on cooldown. Overlapping CDs isn't something I do casually either but rather as a last resort.

I don't claim to be a great player (and tbh I do feel like age is definitely slowing me down a bit) but I also generally don't struggle either, especially not in heroic. That's why I asked if anyone else found Botanist to be bit outside of the curve as far as tank damage goes.

[Crevan]

I solo every single 100 energy fel scythes and my own own bonds. Occasionally I take an external, but I take purgatory as insurance. Gul'dan has a terrible habit of getting to 100 energy and casting abilities before actually using his scythe, which has unfortunate side effects with rune taps really short duration.

I'm curious, is there any reason you're allowing him to go to 100 energy, other than being unlucky with other ability timings?

[Tojara]

Other tank picks up dreadlord, gets aggro on eye of gul'dan (they do have a threat table) and helps with empowered bonds in P2. In P3 he soaks as many souls as he possibly can.

We do it this way because it was way easier to heal the tanks like this and I virtually need 0 healing. As long as you don't have somebody cause a fel scythe, his timings work out to where he never lines both scythe and empowered bonds at the same time. Basically, he bursts for 12 million damage every 40 seconds, and that's easily covered with VB (will be up for every single one), bone shield and rune tap. Bonds are easily done with just rune tap and AMS. If you find yourself low on rune tap charges or you mess something up, you can ask for an external, use IBF, or rely on purgatory (or blood mirror).

Basically I just get one giant burst (healed by two death strikes) every 40 seconds. Other than that Gul'dan really doesn't do much damage. Seemed easy, and the other tank can help with other things.

[Crevan]

I see, just a difference in strategy then. We have other people handling chains/souls, and we keep the dreadlords on top of the boss, so there's no need for us to go high on energy.

[Tehr]

Sheesh, I wasn't really asking for a Struggle Session here. Clearly the Botanist kill wasn't my finest hour and just playing better would've solved most of the issues, but I feel like there's quite a bit of generalization going on here (such as Bone Shield dropping which happened exactly once). Marrowrending at high stacks comes up from time to time since 7.1.5 to prevent it from falling off completely and as for Vampiric Blood I don't quite see the point unless you're implying it should be used on cooldown. Overlapping CDs isn't something I do casually either but rather as a last resort.

I don't claim to be a great player (and tbh I do feel like age is definitely slowing me down a bit) but I also generally don't struggle either, especially not in heroic. That's why I asked if anyone else found Botanist to be bit outside of the curve as far as tank damage goes.

I'm not trying to crucify you, I'm trying to help you realize that Botanist isn't that outrageous in terms of tank damage, and that if you were playing as well as you probably are capable of, you wouldn't have had any issues.

I guess in a certain sense I am generalizing, but you also have to recognize that these problems occurred during the time you were in danger of dying. I am arguing that these problems are the cause of your death, not any outrageous damage from Botanist.

Here's what I'm talking about when I say you're Marrowrending at 9 and 10 stacks, where you used 4 unnecessary Marrowrend (which would have equaled 8 Heart Strikes or 40 RP):
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...16&end=8937895

Here's what I'm talking about when I say you're letting Bone Shield fall off during periods of high damage (you died as a result):
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...4true%24195181
You let it fall off four times across a period of approximately 45 seconds, and even after being rezzed you taunted the boss and used Blooddrinker before re-applying stacks. While Blooddrinker is definitely important, it's not as important as the 16% DR (plus skeletal shattering) and 10% haste you get from Bone Shield.

Now thinking about Ossuary, look at this link:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...73&end=9074163
You used 8 Death Strikes when you didn't have Ossuary up, 7 of them before your death. Even only considering the 7 before your death, if you had maintained Ossuary through this time you would have had 35 additional RP and thus had enough for an extra Death Strike. While this is arguably kind of minor, it's just a problem created as a result of the above problem.

Regarding VB, the only reason I bring that up is that if you had been more liberal with your usage earlier, you may have been able to avoid using IBF + Trinket in close succession prior to your death, which MAY result in you having them available when you're dying. It's not a problem in and of itself, it just contributes to the other point about overlapping CDs.

I really don't want to be rude (I was sincere when I said that before, and I'm sincere now), I'm just trying to help. Lots of people will fall into traps of "this hits too hard" or "I don't have enough gear" or whatever, and will effect their own struggle. I'm here to tell you that while Botanist does do a lot of damage, it's not an unreasonable amount of damage. Gul'dan does more damage (albeit with lower uptime, so you're able to use cooldowns more often) butit's likely your healers will be very busy healing the raid for the majority of that fight.

[Marrilaife]

Sheesh, I wasn't really asking for a Struggle Session here.

Tbh, you can expect to be picked apart on the forums if you post logs. If they actually tell you what you did wrong (and it seems they did this time) you can call it positive experience, because the negative ones are along the lines "git gud l2p issue" without telling you exactly what to improve.

If someone sacrifices their own time to comb through logs you shouldn't get offended at them, only you yourself can judge in the end which of those mistakes were mistakes you knew about when they happened but couldn't help (fuck I pressed wrong key and messed rotation etc.) and which things you maybe didn't pay attention to so you know where to improve.

Botanist as a boss shouldn't be out of line in comparison to other bosses unless you take both adds at the same time after he splits.

[Zorachus]

I'm a casual Tanker. Been Tanking since BC. Mainly my Paladin and DK. But I didn't like the Class Hall for the Paladin seemed very confusing and quests to follow were missing or just not right at Legion launch IMO. So I got him to 110 and i830 and haven't played him since.

Now I dusted off my old DK last month, haven't played him since MoP, got him to 110 finally last week and now i850. But I keep reading everyone saying DK Tanks blow in Legion I should be using my Paladin instead ? But I found the Tankadin extremely boring and very underpowered as far as DPS go. Like doing WQ's with Paladin take forever and my DK can do in half the time.

I'm mainly a Normal Raider at most. Don't typically get into Heroic Raids for current content.

Opinions ?

[Barael]

Tbh, you can expect to be picked apart on the forums if you post logs.

... which I didn't actually do but someone else went through the trouble of locating them.

[Marrilaife]

But I found the Tankadin extremely boring and very underpowered as far as DPS go. Like doing WQ's with Paladin take forever and my DK can do in half the time.

If there isn't big gear disparity between the toons, you must be doing something wrong. Everyone is crying rivers how Paladins are top damage among the tanks and they should be nerfed...

[Zorachus]

If there isn't big gear disparity between the toons, you must be doing something wrong. Everyone is crying rivers how Paladins are top damage among the tanks and they should be nerfed...

My Death Knight Tank is i851 and has 99% all but one slot filled in Artifact Knowledge Power.

My Paladin is i829 and maybe 40% of my Artifact slots filled only. Plus haven't finished the Class campaign and no third relic slot unlocked yet.

So...could those two characters with those differences be a major DPS difference ? And play a lot different as far as power and damage compared to each other ?

[ThePhoenix]

My Death Knight Tank is i851 and has 99% all but one slot filled in Artifact Knowledge Power.

My Paladin is i829 and maybe 40% of my Artifact slots filled only. Plus haven't finished the Class campaign and no third relic slot unlocked yet.

So...could those two characters with those differences be a major DPS difference ? And play a lot different as far as power and damage compared to each other ?

Paladins have noticeably higher DPS, in raids at least. You can see the Nighthold numbers here:
Normal Heroic Mythic

Keep in mind that tank DPS heavily varies with the role that you have in raid (for instance, the tank picking up the adds on Skorpyron is bound to have more DPS than the one on the boss), but you can see that DK tanks are currently struggling - along with DHs - to keep up with the rest.

[Tojara]

I really don't think other tanks need to be nerfed in DPS. It's not like tank DPS, even if you're talking about some warrior builds or prot paladins are doing absolutely outrageous damage. The problem is, blood DKs, much like DH tanks need their damage buffed. The problem, especially with DKs lies in multiple areas. Our artifact weapon gives a paltry amount of damage in regards to the traits that actually effect DPS in addition to our talent tree offering very few choices that can reasonably boost damage.

It's hilarious because soulgorger was quite obviously going to be a talent that was designed (talking theory, not the actual numbers) that made the rotation a bit more difficult, but if done properly you would get big payoffs, presumably in being able to use more runes, which would obviously equate to more damage. What we ended up getting is a trap talent which is garbage, and does neither of those things.

Rapid decomposition being nerfed DPS wise is an absolute joke. Talent wise they would need to lift the first tier up, look at the second tier once again, and probably buff the last tier. Bonestorm realistically needs to do a lot more damage, and probably still needs to produce more healing. Blood mirror defensively is good, but it certainly could keep the same DR, but just reflect a larger portion of damage back. Other than that the only thing they could do is buff our traits, or just flat out use the magic tuning knob to increase the damage of all DK abilities by whatever %. Honestly if they just reverted the changes they did to all tanks a few weeks in, we would probably be fine.

[ThePhoenix]

RD nerf wasn't that bad, but they failed to do anything to make the other talents in the row any more attractive. SD is still ruining Bone Shield by removing the internal cooldown and Soulgorge feels like a very strange talent considering how weak Death's Caress is. Maybe if it also buffed Death's Caress it would make more sense. I believe a small buff to Marrowrend, HS, and BB are more than enough since they hit like a wet noodle compared to DS and Blooddrinker. There is no need to make big changes if they don't feel like it (which they don't), so some number tuning would suffice.

What I would like to see is Consumption getting a small change to make it more rewarding single target. Currently it feels godlike at 4+ targets and very weak against 1-2.

[Marrilaife]

Plus haven't finished the Class campaign and no third relic slot unlocked yet.

Yea, it matters...

I remember people at start of legion complaining paladin tanks suck and then saying "oh but I have no traits / relics in prot, all went to ret / holy". It matters. Ilvl matters as well. Can't compare chars with 20 ilvl difference and big differences in artifact.

quests to follow were missing or just not right at Legion launch IMO. So I got him to 110 and i830 and haven't played him since.

P.S. If you had a problem with quests not spawning for class order campaign, be sure you did the light's heart scenario / questline, nearly every person complaining on trade chat they're stuck didn't do light's heart and that solved it for them. Could be unrelated, disregard it if doesn't apply to your case.

[Deleted]

SD is still ruining Bone Shield by removing the internal cooldown

The way SD works is correct and intended. SD does not obey the ICD. The ICD for melee attacks is still 2 seconds, SD removes a Charge *every* time an attack hits you for more than 25% of your hp. Melee attacks will still remove a Charge on the same rate as without SD. If SD would obey the ICD it would be broken af.

[ThePhoenix]

The way SD works is correct and intended. SD does not obey the ICD. The ICD for melee attacks is still 2 seconds, SD removes a Charge *every* time an attack hits you for more than 25% of your hp. Melee attacks will still remove a Charge on the same rate as without SD. If SD would obey the ICD it would be broken af.

I'm not implying it's not working as intended, however, the few times where I felt SD could be useful and actually tried it, the gameplay felt much worse. Frantically casting Marrowrend to keep Ossuary up is not fun by any means. I'd assume it's much better combined with Rune Tap though, since it has some synergy with the increased charge depletion. Haven't tried RT at all this expansion however, WoD's version felt more intuitive, but that's mostly because DS was still costing runes back then.

[Zorachus]

Not sure which to play then ? I got my DK up to i855 now, with almost every single Artifact trait slot filled up, whereas my Paladin is only i830, and still no third Relic slot opened yet, and like only half my Artifact traits filled.

My point, I am a casual WoW player, I do play almost every night, but only for an hour or so at night, and I get burned out gearing up toons. I already have a Demon Hunter Tank at i865, and quit playing him, just got bored. So to gear up this Paladin sounds like a lot of work, to get him 25 iLvl's to equal my DK plus the Campaign quests to complete, and all the AP I need to gather.

But I did redo some Talents on the Paladin Tank last night, following Icy Veins guide, and I ran a few WQ's and that seemed to make a nice difference for the better on the Tankadin. More fun, and more powerful now. But there's that time sink ahead of me, not sure i'm up for ?

The DK Tank I also tweaked a tiny bit per Icy Veins, and I got his rotation down pat, he seems very quick and to the point in damage, and crazy self healing. I ran some PvP BG's and the DK Tank surprising was very good, and I typically don't PvP much until rectnyl the past few weeks, this DK seems pretty sweet in PvP.

My dilemma;

- Paladin Tank feels great against large mobs, and tons of trash. I can start off whipping Avengers Shield at the group, then walk up to them with Blessed Hammer flying around + Concentration on the ground, and just totally own a million monsters glued to me with ease, no one escaping, I have total control of all trash.

- DK Tank I do not feel that confident against a big group, yeah D+D helps plus Blood Boil, but for some reason it doesn't instill the same confidence of "glued together" I get with the Paladin. I feel the Paladin was designed to just go after ten thousand monsters at once with ease and have total control of all aggro and AOE, whereas the DK, I'm not so sure ?

[Marrilaife]

My point, I am a casual WoW player, I do play almost every night, but only for an hour or so at night, and I get burned out gearing up toons.

Dunno what you mean really, because WOW is 10% levelling 90% "gearing up toons" game. Atm if you're a casual and get a char to 860-870 it stops there, or at least there's a very steep climb full of being rejected from pugs and joining fail groups. So you can generally get to the ilvl of NH LFR gear or thereabouts without much pain and then what? I just leave my alts there and start another, rinse and repeat until 7.2. My main has the raid gear so that's completely different story.

The casual ilvl is sufficient to go solo stuff or do mythic dungeons (the non keystone ones) etc. so I really don't care to push my alts further, question is what do you expect from your main?

- DK Tank I do not feel that confident against a big group, yeah D+D helps plus Blood Boil, but for some reason it doesn't instill the same confidence of "glued together" I get with the Paladin. I feel the Paladin was designed to just go after ten thousand monsters at once with ease and have total control of all aggro and AOE, whereas the DK, I'm not so sure ?

Weird, because it looks like some DK's abilities are only useful against big groups (like bonestorm or consumption), you also have mass grip which is a great tool to "glue mobs together".

No one can tell you which playstyle you'd like more, I just pointed out you can't say a class sucks if it has 20 ilvls less and undeveloped artifact, it's the same situation as if someone said "mage sucks because it does less damage than my warlock" and then you'd learn about the gear & artifact disparity.

[Zorachus]

Dunno what you mean really, because WOW is 10% levelling 90% "gearing up toons" game. Atm if you're a casual and get a char to 860-870 it stops there, or at least there's a very steep climb full of being rejected from pugs and joining fail groups. So you can generally get to the ilvl of NH LFR gear or thereabouts without much pain and then what? I just leave my alts there and start another, rinse and repeat until 7.2. My main has the raid gear so that's completely different story.

The casual ilvl is sufficient to go solo stuff or do mythic dungeons (the non keystone ones) etc. so I really don't care to push my alts further, question is what do you expect from your main?

Weird, because it looks like some DK's abilities are only useful against big groups (like bonestorm or consumption), you also have mass grip which is a great tool to "glue mobs together".

No one can tell you which playstyle you'd like more, I just pointed out you can't say a class sucks if it has 20 ilvls less and undeveloped artifact, it's the same situation as if someone said "mage sucks because it does less damage than my warlock" and then you'd learn about the gear & artifact disparity.

I'd be more than happy with my 3 or 4 characters all at i865 / 870, I want my Tanks to at least break into that 4,000 health range. I'm super cool with that.

Do I want i900+ geared characters with 5,000 health ? Yeah that'd be nice, but I honestly know I don't have the time to put into that, so won't fool myself into thinking that will happen. But i870 and able to run Normal Raids is more than cool with me. I've never been a current content Heroic or Mythic Raider, I've always been a LFR and Normal guy with my Guild.

I would like one of them to be my "Main" with a higher gear Lvl. I'd like that guy to eventually be a i880 toon.

[Marrilaife]

I want my Tanks to at least break into that 4,000 health range.

Tanks don't have the same base HP though. Druids have the highest. Warriors have to spec into 25% extra HP otherwise they're on the low side, same Paladins. DHs got a buff in the recent patch to their HP. I think DKs are on the higher side too, especially with some talents like foul bulwark. It's not a measurement of tank effectiveness, but if you want that phat health bar, you need a druid.