[Discussion] Disc Healing Compared To Other Healers [Comparison][Raiding][Mythic+]

[Yunzi]

Discs suck in heroic raids because heroic groups generally fuck up mechanics, push timings without cooldown coordination, overheal, don't care about a few deaths here and there and wing healing cooldowns as they go. They're clumsy.

These issues don't disappear in Mythic raids by default. They disappear with good groups filled with good players playing in an organised and controlled manner. The fact that Disc as a spec requires this to function competitively is poor design compared to all other healers who don't have these requirements.

I agree with you that there's regularly a bunch of nonsense posted about Disc, but unfortunately you're adding to that right now.

It's completely not true that Disc requires a good or organized group to perform well. I raid with groups varying greatly in organization and skill. It's not uncommon for some of them to be drunk, clearly not paying attention, distracted by screaming babies, barking dogs, and who knows what else.

Here's the deal about Disc - it's a *flexible* spec. Mythic robots like Sups don't have to care about flexibility because all of the crazy silliness that normal humans experience don't apply to him. So he can do his thing and experience a very similar raiding environment from pull to pull. That's what it means to raid at the very high end of progression - CONTROL. Everyone knows what to do and they do it over and over, iterating slightly and finally kill the boss when their cumulative iterative improvements allow it (combined with good RNG).

Instead of control what normal humans experience is *surprise*. Like, *surprise*, our main tank spilled beer on his keyboard and is cleaning it up during the pull, so how should my healing adjust to account for that? The "best Discs" very rarely have to deal with that. If that actually happens during high-end progression, they just accept a wipe and try again.

A big problem is that Robot Disc, healing in a very regimented, rote, and predetermined manner, actually only applies to a very small subset of raiders, those on the highest end, yet the regard in which they are held and the healing analysis that accords with *their* experience is entirely out of line with their population. The rest of us deal with humanity and everything that means.

So what do normal Discs have to do to excel? We need to evaluate our context. How many players are in the raid? Is there a Holy Pally? How strong are the tanks? Are any of the DPS/Healers bad at avoiding damage? Whatever knowledge we have before the pull even starts helps.

Although Legion Disc is the worst reactive healer spec, we still have some capacity in that regard. PWS, Shadow Mend, Plea, and PWR all have reactive components. Pain Suppression doesn't have to be used on a tank - it's a great, if rarely usable, emergency heal.

Here's a log of a solo-heal 9-player normal Skorpyron, including 34 casts of Shadow Mend.

And this, in what could only be described as a ridiculous clusterfuck, probably the farthest thing possible from "good players playing in an organised and controlled manner", is the top Disc parse currently for normal Aluriel.

[Popokolara]

I agree with you that there's regularly a bunch of nonsense posted about Disc, but unfortunately you're adding to that right now.

It's completely not true that Disc requires a good or organized group to perform well. I raid with groups varying greatly in organization and skill. It's not uncommon for some of them to be drunk, clearly not paying attention, distracted by screaming babies, barking dogs, and who knows what else.

Here's the deal about Disc - it's a *flexible* spec. Mythic robots like Sups don't have to care about flexibility because all of the crazy silliness that normal humans experience don't apply to him. So he can do his thing and experience a very similar raiding environment from pull to pull. That's what it means to raid at the very high end of progression - CONTROL. Everyone knows what to do and they do it over and over, iterating slightly and finally kill the boss when their cumulative iterative improvements allow it (combined with good RNG).

Instead of control what normal humans experience is *surprise*. Like, *surprise*, our main tank spilled beer on his keyboard and is cleaning it up during the pull, so how should my healing adjust to account for that? The "best Discs" very rarely have to deal with that. If that actually happens during high-end progression, they just accept a wipe and try again.

A big problem is that Robot Disc, healing in a very regimented, rote, and predetermined manner, actually only applies to a very small subset of raiders, those on the highest end, yet the regard in which they are held and the healing analysis that accords with *their* experience is entirely out of line with their population. The rest of us deal with humanity and everything that means.

So what do normal Discs have to do to excel? We need to evaluate our context. How many players are in the raid? Is there a Holy Pally? How strong are the tanks? Are any of the DPS/Healers bad at avoiding damage? Whatever knowledge we have before the pull even starts helps.

Although Legion Disc is the worst reactive healer spec, we still have some capacity in that regard. PWS, Shadow Mend, Plea, and PWR all have reactive components. Pain Suppression doesn't have to be used on a tank - it's a great, if rarely usable, emergency heal.

Here's a log of a solo-heal 9-player normal Skorpyron, including 34 casts of Shadow Mend.

And this, in what could only be described as a ridiculous clusterfuck, probably the farthest thing possible from "good players playing in an organised and controlled manner", is the top Disc parse currently for normal Aluriel.

I need to say i really appreciate this logic, and it is inded the reality of the lower class raider. Especially when your guild does not coordinate healing cooldowns, you face difficult decisions. I need however to mention that all these logs on their own don't mean much. The auriel fight had 2 healers. Some other logs i have seen had a single one! Not trying to lessen the achievement if such it is, but how can we compare such scenarios, and how can these be considered relevant to the progress experience?

In the end shouldn't we only use progress fight logs? And from these some get ruined by critical mistakes which will certainly wipe the raid, so they should be taken out? General conclusions can be drawn out, mostly related to overall class performance over a fights duration, but in the end its the deeper analysis that proves something.

Disclaimer: I have no experience in high level of raiding so i do not know how the circumstances are there.

[Deleted]

In the end shouldn't we only use progress fight logs?

give MW like a flat 30% buff then

[Totaltotemic]

After all this time, you guys are still getting baited by Rifeposts?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Ryfe/advanced

The guy has done 3 more raids (one 2/3 heroic ToV run, a 6/10 heroic NH run, and a whole 10/10 heroic NH run) since I last checked up on this nonsense in October. 3 raids in 4 months, that's the experience of the person you're all wasting your time on.

That's not the best part though. The best part is that... wait for it... he's not even playing Disc in raids (yet goes Disc for 5 mans because..? ). He's a trash tier 26 trait Holy Priest.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...mmary&source=7

Just so you all know who you're wasting your time on.

[Desmonda]

After all this time, you guys are still getting baited by Rifeposts?

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Ryfe/advanced

The guy has done 3 more raids (one 2/3 heroic ToV run, a 6/10 heroic NH run, and a whole 10/10 heroic NH run) since I last checked up on this nonsense in October. 3 raids in 4 months, that's the experience of the person you're all wasting your time on.

That's not the best part though. The best part is that... wait for it... he's not even playing Disc in raids (yet goes Disc for 5 mans because..? ). He's a trash tier 26 trait Holy Priest.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...mmary&source=7

Just so you all know who you're wasting your time on.

So your saying only someone that raids consistently can make a point about the spec? I raided EN and part of TOV as Disc, I think that was plenty of time to form a judgment of the spec and the fact that I didn't like what had been done to it. I dont get into parses and logs as that isnt my concern. I know Discs when played in the limited fashion that it was designed to in this expac can have high numbers. I don't like the specs limitations. So I can't comment on that? Not sure what your saying.

[Totaltotemic]

So your saying only someone that raids consistently can make a point about the spec? I raided EN and part of TOV as Disc, I think that was plenty of time to form a judgment of the spec and the fact that I didn't like what had been done to it. I dont get into parses and logs as that isnt my concern. I know Discs when played in the limited fashion that it was designed to in this expac can have high numbers. I don't like the specs limitations. So I can't comment on that? Not sure what your saying.

I didn't say anything about you. You make it quite obvious to everyone that you don't play the spec and spend your days mindlessly ranting on an internet forum about how much you dislike something you have no part in.

But since you chimed in, how many weeks of raiding did you actually do? There doesn't seem to be any record of a priest that has ever done any raids named Desmonda anywhere, which is quite odd considering the signature.

[Desmonda]

I didn't say anything about you. You make it quite obvious to everyone that you don't play the spec and spend your days mindlessly ranting on an internet forum about how much you dislike something you have no part in.

But since you chimed in, how many weeks of raiding did you actually do? There doesn't seem to be any record of a priest that has ever done any raids named Desmonda anywhere, which is quite odd considering the signature.

I dont care if you said nothing about me, so now no one can comment on what you write on a public forum? And for a person with over 5k posts on a gaming forum I think the only person ranting crap all day is you. So please have several seats and get a life while your at it.

[Totaltotemic]

I dont care if you said nothing about me, so now no one can comment on what you write on a public forum? And for a person with over 5k posts on a gaming forum I think the only person ranting crap all day is you. So please have several seats and get a life while your at it.

Glad I could expose you too. Hopefully this sorry excuse for a thread can die now that everyone knows the antagonists literally don't even play the game in the raids they say Disc is so awfully designed for.

[Rife]

I posted a breakdown of Discs performance in Heroic and Mythic raids based on WoL data.

Total has come running back to these forums with my armoury link he's probably had bookmarked for 4 months claiming my posts aren't based on worthy personal raiding experience while ignoring the fact that my posts and conclusions are based on WoL data from thousands of Discs in Heroic and hundreds in Mythic and not my own raiding experience.

Mend has replied with a nice memepic which if nothing else keeps the meme magic in here alive and is appreciated.

Reglitch has been Reglitch.

Yunzi has at least tried to further the discussion with logs and personal opinions which is nice to see here. While I do somewhat agree with what he's saying it's difficult to give a few cherry picked logs credence in the face of conclusions drawn from tens of thousands of logs.

Statistically Discs are not excelling in Mythic and are significantly falling behind other healers in Heroic. This isn't something that can be argued with. My conclusions as to why this is happening can be argued with and is subjective but the data itself is not.

It's easier to attack me rather than refute my conclusions and offer alternative explanations. I guess it's also easy to look at some graphs and basic analysis of WoL data and think it's meaningless if you don't understand maths.

Glad I could expose you too.

Hahahaha "expose". Your posts like these are the reason my avatar is what it is. That's the face I made when I read your post.

Now I'm just imagining you scrolling through here writing your replies and pressing enter then saying: https://youtu.be/8tOsQv-rrEE?t=8s

[Supliftz]

i think it's cute disc has gotten to the point where i'm referred to by name as an outlier

thank u friends, my ego really needed this

- - - Updated - - -

I agree with you that there's regularly a bunch of nonsense posted about Disc, but unfortunately you're adding to that right now.

It's completely not true that Disc requires a good or organized group to perform well. I raid with groups varying greatly in organization and skill. It's not uncommon for some of them to be drunk, clearly not paying attention, distracted by screaming babies, barking dogs, and who knows what else.

Here's the deal about Disc - it's a *flexible* spec. Mythic robots like Sups don't have to care about flexibility because all of the crazy silliness that normal humans experience don't apply to him. So he can do his thing and experience a very similar raiding environment from pull to pull. That's what it means to raid at the very high end of progression - CONTROL. Everyone knows what to do and they do it over and over, iterating slightly and finally kill the boss when their cumulative iterative improvements allow it (combined with good RNG).

Instead of control what normal humans experience is *surprise*. Like, *surprise*, our main tank spilled beer on his keyboard and is cleaning it up during the pull, so how should my healing adjust to account for that? The "best Discs" very rarely have to deal with that. If that actually happens during high-end progression, they just accept a wipe and try again.

A big problem is that Robot Disc, healing in a very regimented, rote, and predetermined manner, actually only applies to a very small subset of raiders, those on the highest end, yet the regard in which they are held and the healing analysis that accords with *their* experience is entirely out of line with their population. The rest of us deal with humanity and everything that means.

So what do normal Discs have to do to excel? We need to evaluate our context. How many players are in the raid? Is there a Holy Pally? How strong are the tanks? Are any of the DPS/Healers bad at avoiding damage? Whatever knowledge we have before the pull even starts helps.

Although Legion Disc is the worst reactive healer spec, we still have some capacity in that regard. PWS, Shadow Mend, Plea, and PWR all have reactive components. Pain Suppression doesn't have to be used on a tank - it's a great, if rarely usable, emergency heal.

Here's a log of a solo-heal 9-player normal Skorpyron, including 34 casts of Shadow Mend.

And this, in what could only be described as a ridiculous clusterfuck, probably the farthest thing possible from "good players playing in an organised and controlled manner", is the top Disc parse currently for normal Aluriel.

I like your post yunzi. But I think you've confused the "burst based playstyle" with more than what it is. Casting PW:R over spells like smend is just optimal usage of your mana. Just like casting WG over regrowth is. Of course, if you're in situations where you have less people, or where spot healing is more valuable, then shadow mend is a perfectly fine spell to press. I actually used smend a lot on our M augur kill, because it was highly optimal to cast it.

You're right in saying disc is actually pretty flexible. You can adjust where you cast spells to fit a situation where people are dying. No other healer has a way of frontloading their output to fix problems such as these.

[Popokolara]

I posted a breakdown of Discs performance in Heroic and Mythic raids based on WoL data.



Yunzi has at least tried to further the discussion with logs and personal opinions which is nice to see here. While I do somewhat agree with what he's saying it's difficult to give a few cherry picked logs credence in the face of conclusions drawn from tens of thousands of logs.

Statistically Discs are not excelling in Mythic and are significantly falling behind other healers in Heroic. This isn't something that can be argued with. My conclusions as to why this is happening can be argued with and is subjective but the data itself is not.

It's easier to attack me rather than refute my conclusions and offer alternative explanations. I guess it's also easy to look at some graphs and basic analysis of WoL data and think it's meaningless if you don't understand maths.

https://youtu.be/8tOsQv-rrEE?t=8s

But removing sups and putting more weight on the lower gameplay level somehow is objective and a better representation of what the spec CAN DO, and not how the people end up using it - because we can trust the masses right? RIGHT?

Now if you wanted to say the majority of the people dont achieve its potential - there you would make an excellent point.

[kouby]

this post is the most hilarious thing on the internet, bar cats.

[Flykz]

I just don't get why there should'nt be a spec that require more to do the same as others. I mean, it's a game, some ppl play some spec because it's fun, not because you can faceroll and have fine logs bc you have this leg, this one, or bc you have 54 fucking traits.

And above that it has been proven that it's not even the case, so I really wonder why there is so many complains about disc (not that the spec is completly fine though) and literally shitting on the spec. I mean, if it had two spells and was dumb as fuck to play, i would get it. But shitting on the spec because you don't like its mechanics ? I'm kinda lost here.

Great insights on the spec in this thread, though, like Yunzi's.

One point if I may. Disc parses with fewer than 95% uptime on Purged the wicked are shit, it's like if droods did'nt HoT, makes no sense for them, but bring down disc's overall HPS by a lot, even good parses. Even top parses. And it's just a fucking DoT, so just think a second about the whole spec.
Disc is just on another level of (unseen) playstyle, spitting logs and saying "disc is shit" is totally irrelevant.

[kouby]

I just don't get why there should'nt be a spec that require more to do the same as others. I mean, it's a game, some ppl play some spec because it's fun, not because you can faceroll and have fine logs bc you have this leg, this one, or bc you have 54 fucking traits.
...
snip
...
Disc is just on another level of (unseen) playstyle, spitting logs and saying "disc is shit" is totally irrelevant.

Disc is fine, people who play disc are mostly fine with the spec. People crying like little bitches on this forum is nothing new. This forum is a piece of shit because moderation is practically non existent, meaning that useless wastes of space like this shitty post get as much, or more attention than intelligent and thought out posts. Also the vast majority of the players who frequent this forum are so shit that they actually believe that crying on a public forum will excuse their shit for skills in game.

Nothing you read or see on this forum is worth anything, just move along and go play some games. No one gives a shit about these little cry babies.

[Jbreezy]

"disc is fine get gud" says crappers with wisdom and 3 innervates

[Popokolara]

"disc is fine get gud" says crappers with wisdom and 3 innervates

Mend when are you going to teach how to lie to WCL and hide the external mana?

[Jbreezy]

Really, you pointing to mends poop logs as a defense? Spec is weak as fuck. With innervates and wisdom it competes.

[Popokolara]

I would like to hear a discipline currently on mythic guldan tell me his opinion. If someone is the most certified person to do it,i believe it would be him. I also dont understand the meaning of weak as fuck. I mean is he incapable to heal any decently difficult encounter wthout external mana?

[Supliftz]

"disc is fine get gud" says crappers with wisdom and 3 innervates

"disc is bad, please fix" says crappers that do not raid mythic

see I can do this too hehe

[Jbreezy]

Ive healed plenty of mythic raids. You so bad ass Supz, next raid reset get no innervates and no wisdom and lets see your numbers then.