What makes WF/TF a problem for people?

[Granyala]

The 835/840 is the base of what you're doing. So you're mad that a lucky thing isn't happening?

Well, I don't get angry. After a few failures I simply stop to care and do the quests, because I know Blizzard. I know that my time is wasted, b/c they will reset the gear anyway.

Yes, repeatedly wasting my time makes me want to ditch a game.
After all it's supposed to be fun and not an exercise in frustration. (If I wanted that, I'd raid mythic )

[Critical92]

Warforged/Titanforged should have stayed at max +5 itemlevels.
Call it titanforged when it has a socket/other stats + 5 itemlvl.
With that you have a reason to run higher content to get better loot, but you can somehow close the gap with gear a little bit when the bosses are too hard.
With itemlvl 850 my hunter twink can do every outdoor content, so there is no reason to get mythic gear level.
The same counts for mythic+. Too often i have seen people in the past with 900+ items and a +9 text on the item.

[Effenz]

Would you prefer a system where you effectively say "I don't need anything from this raid"?

Players enjoy playing, but also historically cite boredom / nothing to do for vast stretches of time, etc. TF / WF rng alleviate that to a point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHusS6Yd5A8

btw I'm sure most of the people here were complaining that WoD was dead and they had nothing worthwhile to do

[Granyala]

Would you prefer a system where you effectively say "I don't need anything from this raid"?

I'd prefer a deterministic, currency based system.
You can still have drops and RNG to change things up, but ultimately I want to work for my gear at a steady, predictable pace, so I have the feeling that when I do a dungeon I get sth in return.

AP isn't cutting it for me, because it's impact on my characters performance is far to weak.

Maybe it wouldn't be so frustrating to me if I weren't used to having HC/Myth raid gear and knowing how a properly equipped character handles.

[Rankstar]

From the perspective of having encountered this in D3, as well as the original implementation back in MoP with Thunderforged and Warforged

Yeah i miss that system :-(

[Effenz]

Oh yeah, everyone wants badges again, so they can just do the absolute minimum and get top tier gear. I forgot.

[Heathy]

the game is still geared toward pushing ppl toward mythic raiding, if you don't want to raid mythic, thats not to say other ppl would eventually like to.

when you have revolutionary ideas on how to 'fix' a problem that doesn't exist, maybe try to imagine your not the only one playing the game.

[xero5141]

Well, I don't get angry. After a few failures I simply stop to care and do the quests, because I know Blizzard. I know that my time is wasted, b/c they will reset the gear anyway.

Yes, repeatedly wasting my time makes me want to ditch a game.
After all it's supposed to be fun and not an exercise in frustration. (If I wanted that, I'd raid mythic )

The problem isn't the game. The problem is YOU feeling like you're entitled to a TF upgrade (or whatever) when it's such an unbelievably small chance. I think it's something like 5% for each upgrade. So the chance of getting an 865 from an 835 base is something like 5% of 5% of 5% of 5% of 5% of 5%.

Let that sink in.

[synthetikv]

My problem with it is that it keeps me having to run older content to farm things I normally wouldn't.

7.0
Player 1 get bis relic from EN it's titanforged - all is well in the world of this player's mind
Player 2 same scenario these two pals are super stoked at their luck

7.1.5 comes out, titanforged can go even higher sooooooo here we go:
Player 1 doesn't have a bis relic from NH - so his best option is to continue to do EN for a new titanforged relic that pushes the ilvl of his current one even further
Player 2 has bis relic from NH so doesn't give a shit about doing old content

The problem is that there's a disparity between how players can progress, certain specs are left to farm older or undesirable content for their BIS while others can focus on current content. Certain gear matters more than most too so classes where bis trinkets or relics come from dungeons or older raids are going to be stuck farming that content even if they already have the items from back when they were current content.

Remove wf/tf and all of this becomes a non-issue, best version you could get outta something in 7.0 is the same for 7.1.5 and 7.2. And with ilvl of NH being notably higher than EN maybe a relic/trinket that wouldn't be considered bis at same ilvl is now bis due to the ilvl difference.

There's a lot I don't like about legion. World Quests are just random dailies in disguise. AP grinding is completely linear and not fun at all, no real choice of abilities just fill out all the circles! Legendary RNG can mean the difference from you being middle of the pack to you being top DPS. But the fact that older content is still something I need to deal with while others don't because my bis Relic comes from Xavius, Guarm and EoA vs my buddies coming from Tich, Botanist and MoS well thats just fn stupid.

[Granyala]

Oh yeah, everyone wants badges again, so they can just do the absolute minimum and get top tier gear. I forgot.

I don't get people like you.
When I was raiding, I couldn't give a hoot about what other people wear.

[Effenz]

My problem with it is that it keeps me having to run older content to farm things I normally wouldn't.

7.0
Player 1 get bis relic from EN it's titanforged - all is well in the world of this player's mind
Player 2 same scenario these two pals are super stoked at their luck

7.1.5 comes out, titanforged can go even higher sooooooo here we go:
Player 1 doesn't have a bis relic from NH - so his best option is to continue to do EN for a new titanforged relic that pushes the ilvl of his current one even further
Player 2 has bis relic from NH so doesn't give a shit about doing old content

The problem is that there's a disparity between how players can progress, certain specs are left to farm older or undesirable content for their BIS while others can focus on current content. Certain gear matters more than most too so classes where bis trinkets or relics come from dungeons or older raids are going to be stuck farming that content even if they already have the items from back when they were current content.

Remove wf/tf and all of this becomes a non-issue, best version you could get outta something in 7.0 is the same for 7.1.5 and 7.2. And with ilvl of NH being notably higher than EN maybe a relic/trinket that wouldn't be considered bis at same ilvl is now bis due to the ilvl difference.

There's a lot I don't like about legion. World Quests are just random dailies in disguise. AP grinding is completely linear and not fun at all, no real choice of abilities just fill out all the circles! Legendary RNG can mean the difference from you being middle of the pack to you being top DPS. But the fact that older content is still something I need to deal with while others don't because my bis Relic comes from Xavius, Guarm and EoA vs my buddies coming from Tich, Botanist and MoS well thats just fn stupid.

Yes but they want old content to remain a potential source for upgrades, so people who outgear it don't need it.
And there are several relics of the same trait/comparable trait spread across raids soooo

[Charge me Doctor]

I don't get people like you.
When I was raiding, I couldn't give a hoot about what other people wear.

Have you missed good ol' "these peasants don't deserve set gear" rants in wotlk?

[Mlz]

10x the damage? There's math bro. Go find the math on what legendaries add to your dps. Your hyperbole has no power here.

Why shouldn't 925 drop from LFR? It's a <0.001% chance, who cares? Some random dude gets lucky, nice. It literally does not happen enough for it to anything but an extreme outlier.

Prydaz offers about 4k dps increase if you are wearing a 880 neck. Now go and tell me pretty much every single spec doesn't have a legendary that does at least 10x of that? Do you even play this game or just talk out of your ass?

[Effenz]

I don't get people like you.
When I was raiding, I couldn't give a hoot about what other people wear.

I don't care what other people wear. The same way you think TF/WF is bullshit, I think badges are bullshit.

[Granyala]

The problem isn't the game. The problem is YOU feeling like you're entitled to a TF upgrade

I feel entitled to me putting time in and getting sth. usable for my character in return.
Yes, after all, free time is valuable.

With RNG systems, that return is way more often 0 than sth useful. With RNG * RNG * RNG systems, yeah. You know how the math works. So do I.

Got it now? Can't explain it easier.

[Effenz]

Prydaz offers about 4k dps increase if you are wearing a 880 neck. Now go and tell me pretty much every single spec doesn't have a legendary that does at least 10x of that? Do you even play this game or constantly talk out of your ass?

You got some links to sims dere boi? Or are you just talking out ye arse?

[Yunaqt]

I know that my time is wasted, b/c they [Blizzard] will reset the gear anyway.

Yeah same, all my gears being reset next expansion so i'm not going to play until it's released to avoid wasting my time.

[Granyala]

Have you missed good ol' "these peasants don't deserve set gear" rants in wotlk?

No, I still vividly remember the Nerdrage when the IQD vendors were introduced in TBC.
Even back then I facepalmed at the idiocy of these whiners, while happily continuing to raid BT.

[Effenz]

I feel entitled to me putting time in and getting sth. usable for my character in return.
Yes, after all, free time is valuable.

With RNG systems, that return is way more often 0 than sth useful. With RNG * RNG * RNG systems, yeah. You know how the math works. So do I.

Got it now? Can't explain it easier.

Well if you put your time in the right places, you'd see returns.
I don't think you should be rewarded with epics for killing all the boars in durotar.

[Granyala]

Yeah same, all my gears being reset next expansion so i'm not going to GRIND until it's released to avoid wasting my time.

Fixed that for you.