Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[rda]

It is very popular to be blaming players for their lack of self-control. What makes it particularly attractive in this case is that we are talking about raiders - the protected caste that the devs have been constantly licking and petting at the expense of everything else for a long time.

But no matter how tempting it is to say to raiders "suck it up, bwahahaha", doing so is very myopic.

Because it's not about Blizzard somehow delivering justice and choosing to make things that benefit most of the players while inconveniencing raiders (a small part of all players). No, Blizzard aren't doing that. They aren't making things that benefit most of the players. They are solving the task of keeping people hooked on the game without making content, and they are doing that by nudging / forcing / incentivizing players to grind whatever little content they already have, to spend thousands of hours doing what players have been doing for a long time already, for a few increases in numbers. They see content X that you are interested in, and they put between you and that content a wall of content Y, you have to spend months digging through that wall to the content X that you are really interested in (and they get money all the way through).

It is by far not just raiders who are hit by Blizzard's great decisionmaking here. It is also PVPers. You don't hear them, but that's simply because PVP has been turned into such crap in season 1 already that the number of PVPers about halved and likely went even lower now, that's it, that's the entire reason you don't hear them even though they are hit as bad as raiders. And it will soon be all other players, too. Just wait until you get a bit of new content in 7.2 and everything else is going to be just another wave of added difficulty modes and artifact levels with absolutely no added gameplay.

TLDR: Stop piling up on raiders. Look into what Blizzard are doing. You are hit as well.

[Deleted]

The more apt analogy is sports. Say the NFL didn't have any rules on steroids. And then players started taking steroids to be better players. And then other players took steroids to compete with those better players. Both sides have blame, the players who create the arms race, and the league that doesn't limit the arms race. The point is, your team will be driven by the most competitive players, and they'll be like, "Why isn't everyone else taking the same measures we're taking to be competitive?"

Easy solution: Don't allow steroids. Not say, "Oh, well, they don't have to take steroids."

Every competitive event has limits put on it for precisely this reason. With the AP grind being what it is, and the ability to constantly farm it via m+, there is effectively no limit on the grind, until you max out all your specs at 54, just in time for 7.2 where the next grind is introduced. And as long as the ability to make oneself more competitive exists - not doing it is not being competitive.

You could dumb this down to the gear grind.
You could also say that the NFL should say that it's not allowed to train more than 4h a week, so people with less time can stay competitive.
Maybe the fact that you can invest a lot of time into something, and earn the results earlier than someone who doesn't, is the right thing? Just maybe?

[eschatological]

Blizzard restricts content and people whine when they have nothing to do. Blizzard doesn't restrict content and people whine about too much to do. Go figgure.
Do you cry in a restaurant if your meal is bigger then you're comfortable with? Do you just force yourself to binge-eating it, resulting in vomiting and stomach pain? If you do, would you blame the restaurant for overeating, or would you look in the mirror?

Again, no mythic raider I know whines about having nothing to do. We enjoy farm, and mount sales, and having a light schedule, until progression kicks in again. It's people who finish LFR and don't want to do anything further who are often complaining about lacking things to do.

[Deleted]

Don't defend the artifact system as if it's not a cancer to WoW.

I definitely prefer the artifact system over having to hope for new weapon drops etc. as it gives you a way to continuously improve your weapon throughout the expansion without having to hope for a good drop. And I would like Blizzard to stick with it. As always, people like different things.

[eschatological]

You could dumb this down to the gear grind.
You could also say that the NFL should say that it's not allowed to train more than 4h a week.

The NFL *does* have limits on how much you can make your players practice. Hell, there's a players' union just to control that shit.

[Dangg]

I have had 54 traits since the first week of nighthold, and I only play 20-30 hours per week typically.

'Only' 20-30 hours week? That's like semi-pro time investment in nearly every other hobby.

[Deleted]

It's not a hurry. The first seven bosses will probably take most of the "above average" mythic guilds about a week per boss to kill. Then they'll probably spend at least 2 months, 9-12 hours a week, bashing their heads against the last three. That isn't exactly trying to be hasty. That's a 4 month time table, and I'm being generous with how fast those bosses will go down for those guilds.

So you're saying - there's no need to do crazy grinds. It'll sort itself out automatically?

[setsuna f seiei]

Sure because every OTHER leader is doing the same thing, and people live of this kind of stuff (sponsorships and selling runs). Blizzard could have been helpfull here and just disable paragon points (and legendary's) during progress tho specificaly refused saying something along the lines of "it's not fun to get a character power upgrade and then be told you can't use it"..... TELL WHO?! the lfr hero that his two bis (after explaining what bis is ofc) legendaries won't work in the mythic he accidentaly signed up for?

But Blizzard didnt make this game for the 1% raiders it's for the 100% player base, if the top x % want to farm endlessly that's on them and they join a guild that
shares the same goals. You do what you have to in order to stay on top. They tried in sunwell then EU got salty because they had to wait, they tried it in ICC with limited tried then people opted for split raids to test it on their alts because players will always do what they can to stay ahead. This is no different. As said before the top 1% don't moan about the changes, they just adept and work with it, it's the reddit / mmo guys who "think" it's going to be to hard and they should get this change.

[eschatological]

So you're saying - there's no need to do crazy grinds. It'll sort itself out automatically?

Nah, that's with pushing hard every week on a limited schedule. You're looking at hundreds of pulls on some of these bosses from 4+ on up. And if you're not at high trait level, hundreds of wasted pulls.

[Deleted]

The NFL *does* have limits on how much you can make your players practice. Hell, there's a players' union just to control that shit.

And it's out of their control what the players do after their practice.

The artifact grind is over at some point too. What's the difference.

[Deleted]

Don't defend the artifact system as if it's not a cancer to WoW.

Don't bother. I have noticed there are certain people that like ANYTHING from Blizzard and also defend Blizzard to the death.

If one day Blizzard would start collecting dog turds off the street, and then applying their Blizzard logo to them and selling them as Blizzard merchandise, the same people would go "I always thought dog turds are disgusting but Blizzard really opened my eyes. Thanks, Blizzard".

[Deleted]

It's not a hurry. The first seven bosses will probably take most of the "above average" mythic guilds about a week per boss to kill. Then they'll probably spend at least 2 months, 9-12 hours a week, bashing their heads against the last three. That isn't exactly trying to be hasty. That's a 4 month time table, and I'm being generous with how fast those bosses will go down for those guilds.

Ok, so either you accept that is the time is gonna take you to take down those bosses, if you do raid Mythic and enjoy that, or you just do heroic faster than that and decide to not go into mythic, or you can even do the whole raid in heroic, and just kill a bunch of mythic bosses, whatever prevents you from getting burnout or feeling miserable because of a videogame.
If none of the former works for you, you can still leave or take a vacation from the game.

[Shalanoree]

I pretty much didn't agree with anything else he said on that Q&A, but he's right on this one (on the burnout thing, not on the 50 infinite traits).
Even the top raiders admit it's their fault and not Blizzard's. Most people saying it's Blizzard's fault are mid-tier players that wouldn't have a chance of clearing a mythic raid on the first week either way. So, I'd say it's working well when you just play at your own rythm. AP progression is supposed to last until the next patch, if you want to do it all in one week with 5 different characters, it's your own damn problem. Everything in moderation and you'll be fine.

It's like saying it's the Earth's fault that people have died from hyponatremia (water overdosing), just because there was so much water available for them to drink.

[Dizzeeyooo]

Why should Blizzard always cater for the needs and whims of the mythic raiders?

idk why they can only cater for one side or the other all of a sudden, previous expansions were able to reach a much better point of balance between mythic raiders and casuals both being happy with the game

not sure why wod raiders paradise or legion casuals paradise are now the only two options worth considering

[Deleted]

idk why they can only cater for one side or the other all of a sudden, previous expansions were able to reach a much better point of balance between mythic raiders and casuals both being happy with the game

not sure why wod raiders paradise or legion casuals paradise are now the only two options worth considering

What is it now, I thought Legion is super hardcore because of the grind. How is it casuals paradise?

[theyanger]

Raiders didn't put 54 fucking traits in. Period. Blizz knows that if you make it appealing and beneficial to do stupid shit, people will. This isn't news. This is game design basic 101 shit.

[Deleted]

Nah, that's with pushing hard every week on a limited schedule. You're looking at hundreds of pulls on some of these bosses from 4+ on up. And if you're not at high trait level, hundreds of wasted pulls.

So - remove a raid day or two instead of wasting all those pulls? Take it easy until you hit the required mark?

[Canderous1]

you want world firsts you make sacrifices. there have always been guilds that push the envelope. that's their choice.

[KaPe]

What is it now, I thought Legion is super hardcore because of the grind. How is it casuals paradise?

Aren't some people saying that Legion delivered exactly what "casuals" wanted and it's only those super hardcore assholes wanting to ruin it? Read the thread.

[eschatological]

And it's out of their control what the players do after their practice.

The artifact grind is over at some point too. What's the difference.

You're reaching hard here. Real hard. Players don't go home and organize team practices. Players would, though, take some pills if it gave them an edge, and the NFL didn't forbid it.

The artifact grind will end, yes. I'm at 54/51/35 traits for my pure DPS class. I can see the end in sight. I'll probably even reach it before 7.2 and have some time off. Then a new grind will be introduced, and it will be even more onerous than the current grind. They're making it exponentially harder to grind in 7.2, which is where most of these new complaints are coming from. Regardless, that doesn't change the fact that this is, by far, the most out-of-raid time I've had to spend to be prepared for a raid, ever. Prepared, not over prepared. And I only do one character, 11 hours a week, because I'm a Mythic raider who is supposedly taking it easy.