Ion: It's the Myhic guild leaders fault for burnout

[Musta]

I don't remember Artifact Power, multiple legendaries and repeated M+ runs being a thing in TBC. I don't remember previous expansions suddenly making it more difficult to "cap" your alt. I don't remember it taking months to reach full potential of your character *in a single specialization*, even ignoring the actual gearing process.

It could be that Legion introduced some new features and not all of them work perfectly - as shown by the 7.2 changes. Also by statement being taken out of context and ignoring rest of Ion's speech... But nah, it's just those damn mythic raiders being whiny bitches as usual. Good thing you were there to show them.

Sadly for you most ppl agree that its not blizzard's job to babysit players from burnout.

[MoanaLisa]

Do you honestly believe that in the past you could not have a life and raid at a high level?

That's not what I said. I despair about the reading comprehension that is daily shown here. Making a personal choice to not organize my life around the game isn't at all the same thing as saying that I couldn't have a life otherwise.

As for the rest of your post I've already addressed it. It's an open-ended system now that allows a player to do pretty much as they like. That's fine. Those that want to spend all of their time pursuing AP can do so. Those that enjoy running M+ all the time can do so and still expect some sort of reward.

No one has to. No one really requires Blizzard to shake their finger at them and say, "No, you've done enough this week".

Blizzard tuning Mythic for 54 traits is something that is going affect perhaps one player in 10. Remember what I said about Blizzard designing the game around the top 10% and how that worked out for them? That's what you seem to still expect. Personally I think leaving the game open-ended is much better. It just requires people to not act like a completist about everything.

[Deleted]

Feels some people here don't have much experience in mythic raiding (or don't sympathize with it, clearly) . I say this not because it's not fine not having it - because it is, this doesn't have to appeal everyone and alternative gameplay MUST exist -, but because some have a sort of "mythic raiders, I feel harmed by them, let's have this opportunity to look down upon them" mentality kinda thing and these discussions end up... not being great discussions. Try to put some of the aggressiveness aside.

There is blame in both sides. This is not a mere "players cannot control themselves", but mostly in Blizzard's design. The way this system is designed, is detached of how this game plays out. Artifact weapons is a good and interesting system in its essence, don't take me wrong. But was not thoroughly thought about its limitations and advent problems. I'm a firm believer artifacts should have had a cap - and that would stop at the 34th or 35th traits. Because the consequence of having these "paragons levels" is being impossible to balance content properly around them. You cannot disregard they exist and risk turning content difficulty irrelevant, yet if you overshoot creates issues. It's true these last traits with flat costs made things worse, made it feel a reachable goal. But we cannot deny Nighthold mythic is balanced around with these in mind - you see the first 3 bosses are reasonably accessible and suddenly the difficulty spikes, not exactly by mechanics but DPS requirements (that gear itself doesn't seem to solve it unless in long term). I'm not saying Nighthold should be cleared in a month, but the difficulty doesn't seem consistent because Blizzard assumed - aware of their flat levels mistake and starting to see this was more reachable than intended - there would be many cases where players would have 54 traits and balanced around this possibility, which doesn't exactly translate to reality. And this is where this whole problematic starts. People feel they reach an obstacle and turn to the most clear and direct alternative at their hands: to get that 15% extra power.

I can understand people may not like what mythic raiding is about and prefer a more casual, relax play - I'm up for having both styles, even for myself - but mythic raiding a bit more than the world race and it's not about that 1% or 10%. There are collective minds that like the challenge and feel accomplished by having this kind of activity. But this Artifact Power grind just brought problems to this type of raiding (and other areas of this game). You might not feel it, but it's there. Simple things we were used to do, from preparation to having a playable offspec, are now completely controlled and determined by AP grind.

[Deleted]

He was elitist jerk's guild leader. He has never changed.

[Mamut]

https://clips.twitch.tv/warcraft/OpenDugongYouWHY

What a fucking ass. Seriously.

Fire this guy ASAP.

For what? For telling truth?

[MoanaLisa]

Feels some people here don't have much experience in mythic raiding (or don't sympathize with it, clearly) . I say this not because it's not fine not having it - because it is, this doesn't have to appeal everyone and alternative gameplay MUST exist -, but because some have a sort of "mythic raiders, I feel harmed by them, let's have this opportunity to look down upon them" mentality kinda thing and these discussions end up... not being great discussions. Try to put some of the aggressiveness aside.

Mythic raiding is fine and mythic raiders are fine too. Their dedication to the game to whatever degree that exists is a personal choice that has consequences. If they do not care for the consequences they can examine their own priorities or look around for someone else to blame. I think it's fine to say that it's not fun to do the stuff you need to do to be a mythic raider. It is not fine to sweep into that basket all of the social problems that guild leaders can cause for their members with attendance requirements, alt requirements, or any requirements as such. Mythic raiding increasingly appears to be this Darwinian world where those that don't care for the load are winnowed out. That's too bad but it's not on Blizzard that it happens.

[Deleted]

He is rigth, keeping 1 main whit a
54 wep and other 5 at 35+ for splitruns is not sunstainable in the long way. It can be cool when you do it the first time and maybe you even achive a top5< on some bosses. The problem is that the GM's and some officers too they can sunstain it thanks to twitch (look at sco). In the end until people like day will keep thinking that keeping on par 6+ toons but you are an asshole if you release your world first kill before 5 world kills, i kinda doubt the time investement to play in a top 1-20 guild will get lower

[IceMan1763]

Mythic raiding is fine and mythic raiders are fine too. Their dedication to the game to whatever degree that exists is a personal choice that has consequences. If they do not care for the consequences they can examine their own priorities or look around for someone else to blame. I think it's fine to say that it's not fun to do the stuff you need to do to be a mythic raider. It is not fine to sweep into that basket all of the social problems that guild leaders can cause for their members with attendance requirements, alt requirements, or any requirements as such. Mythic raiding increasingly appears to be this Darwinian world where those that don't care for the load are winnowed out. That's too bad but it's not on Blizzard that it happens.

You literally said two posts ago you don't even raid.

Blizzard is responsible because they set the rules and design the game. If they do a bad job, a lot of people who enjoy the mythic raiding scene (like me) will quit. That's why we're here... a lot of people are unhappy, a lot are quitting, and the tone of the forum reflects it.

[Deleted]

Mythic raiding is fine and mythic raiders are fine too. Their dedication to the game to whatever degree that exists is a personal choice that has consequences. If they do not care for the consequences they can examine their own priorities or look around for someone else to blame. I think it's fine to say that it's not fun to do the stuff you need to do to be a mythic raider. It is not fine to sweep into that basket all of the social problems that guild leaders can cause for their members with attendance requirements, alt requirements, or any requirements as such. Mythic raiding increasingly appears to be this Darwinian world where those that don't care for the load are winnowed out. That's too bad but it's not on Blizzard that it happens.

.

Thanks for your response. The requirements you mention however, are a choice. From my little experience, split runs is not something I see happening often. Those are measures taking to the extreme that only few are up to do. Which unfortunately, right now as of 7.1.5, we cannot say the same about Artifact Power.

[Nnyco]

you cant blame ion or blizzard if you decide to run 500+ maw of souls, raid 4-8hours a day or gear 5chars

[Softbottom]

You literally said two posts ago you don't even raid.

Blizzard is responsible because they set the rules and design the game. If they do a bad job, a lot of people who enjoy the mythic raiding scene (like me) will quit. That's why we're here... a lot of people are unhappy, a lot are quitting, and the tone of the forum reflects it.

They set rules for content you aren't forced to do. If you don't like it don't do it? A lot of people are unhappy? This is content that 2-3% of the player base does.

[phyx]

I don't see those requirements as a problem. The problem is that you get exactly nothing in return. If there was a $100 000 prize at the end of each tier, you better believe hardcore guilds would start growing like mushrooms after rain. It's not that much money when you split it cca 23 ways, but its something at least, and most important, it's recognition. Also, ban split run for the 1st two weeks - problem solved.

[Tharkkun]

Classic blizzard right there, blaming the players and not themselves. Nighthold mythic beyond the 3rd boss is tuned for 54 artifact traits, so im guessing that's the player's fault...

No it's not. It feels that way because players have a single week of heroic gear and 3 eligible bosses of Mythic loot. The instance isn't designed to be cleared in a week. That expectation is brought upon themselves by the guilds who want to do so. In order to clear it prior to gearing up over a few weeks or a month you overcompensate by requiring 54 traits, split raid clears, mythic + clears, etc. The world first race is a fictional race created by the players. Not Blizzard.

[Deleted]

i haven't even gotten to krosus on mythic yet, furthermore as one of the very few people in my team that actually executes mechanics properly it usually falls on me and a couple of others to make sure it isn't a wipe on heroic, where i can't actually just sit there and tunnel the boss, added to that fact the last 2 clears i have done i can count on 1 hand the number of bracer procs i have had, but i forget, you have managed 100% proc rate on yours right?

I have managed to get norgannon's, sephuz, belo'vir, prydaz and koralon's. I wish I had the bracers but I finally gave up on that shit and rerolled frost. I was looking at your HC krosus by the way, not a ton of mechanics that you need to handle there. Point stands though. Most classes can hit those dps checks with 895-900ish ilvl and 40-45 traits. I'll give you that fire mage blows there though, I know it all too well.

[Tharkkun]

You literally said two posts ago you don't even raid.

Blizzard is responsible because they set the rules and design the game. If they do a bad job, a lot of people who enjoy the mythic raiding scene (like me) will quit. That's why we're here... a lot of people are unhappy, a lot are quitting, and the tone of the forum reflects it.

You'll quit because the world first race continues to evolve (DUE to players pushing for more and more) and you feel like you must participate in it. There's no logical reason why you have to cram 3 months of progression and time into 1 week. None. No one blames you for wanting to play competitively but to turn around and cry about it being too hard is all on your shoulders.

[Deleted]

Actually, it IS part of the job of the designer to minimize/prevent unhealthy behavior in your game.

They can't always control every aspect of player behavior of course, but it is core to design if you want to provide a good player experience.

No, it is the responsibility of the player to regulate their own playing and handle it in a healthy way. Personal responsibility is a thing. The only exception from this is if the player is a minor, in which case it's the player's parents responsibility to regulate their behaviour. It's insane to me how many people here seem to advocate that adults shouldn't be responsible for their own actions.

[Tharkkun]

you do realize that raiding 12-16 hours a day for 2-3 weeks isn't what burns them out, right? Grinding all those traits and legendaries is what makes them burn out soo fast. There's literally no down time anymore. (even for casuals)

EN 21.09.16 / ToV 9.11.16 / NH 18.01.17 - we are getting spammed with content.

Why would any casual player feel obligated to grind artifact power? I get 1 point every couple weeks now and my guild is knocking on the door of Mythic raiding. You're supplementing artifact power grinds in place for weekly resets of gear. It's the gotta have it right now gratification and the only one at fault is the player.

[MoanaLisa]

You literally said two posts ago you don't even raid.

What does that have to do with anything? I'll leave you with one more response and just stop there because I've grown tired of you apparently understanding little of what I'm saying.

1. I used to raid at a high level.
2. I understand what it's like.
3. I made a choice to go another direction.

That doesn't mean that I cannot express an opinion on mythic raiding. You don't have to like that opinion but being incredulous that I might speak up with an opinion on a topic is pointless. It's a forum. It's what happens.

One more thing about caps and why the game is better without them: It has everything to do with "falling behind". If there's a cap and I don't meet it then there is a strong tendency among players to believe that they are falling behind. Because the target is the cap. It's a universal thing. Fine.

Do away with the cap and the only person telling me that I'm falling behind is a guild leader or a pug organizer or someone else. That's a social thing. And it's a local thing that only affects me and my personal place in the game. I have choices to make about that. I might step up if I think the requests to get caught up are reasonable or I might say I'm not interested and vacate the guild.

What is much more likely to burn me out--see the initial MOP dailies--is doing stuff I don't particularly care to do to meet that cap. Without caps though it comes down to whether or not I care at all about what, say, other players are doing in game and everything to do with my personal situation. I'll play the game I need to play to do what I want to do. You're free to do likewise. No one is either constrained or driven to meet some gated goal. I think that's better. It's fine if you disagree with that. Some people need that sort of gating that comes along with caps.

I don't and I prefer how it is now.

[Deleted]

Don't forget BiS trinkets being the dungeon trinkets Titanforged. Frost dks need to get a 925 Horn of Valor, Unholy dks need a chaos talisman, and the list goes on. I don't know how many specs this isn't the case for.

Considering there's probably less than a handful frost DKs on any given server with a 925 horn of valor I doubt it's needed. It's something people want, sure, but it's nowhere near necessary.

[IceMan1763]

You'll quit because the world first race continues to evolve (DUE to players pushing for more and more) and you feel like you must participate in it. There's no logical reason why you have to cram 3 months of progression and time into 1 week. None. No one blames you for wanting to play competitively but to turn around and cry about it being too hard is all on your shoulders.

I never said I shot for world firsts... doing so would be impossible with the amount of time I can play. But tuning for no life levels of play just doesn't affect the world first race, it affects the whole mythic raiding scene and even bleeds into the heroic raiding scene in a very negative way.

Ion basically admitted this was a problem, that their AP design was a problem, then decided to shift some blame onto mythic guild leaders for problems created by Ion and his dev team. Hence this thread and a large swath of players being pretty upset with him and the direction of the game.